Panning 2 Stereo/Double Tracked Guitars

iJon0187

New member
Hey all!

New to the forum! I wanted to say hi and ask a question of you fellow mixing folk :)

I am currently finishing up recording and am planning to start the mixing soon. There are two guitarists in the band and for each one, I recorded the guitar in stereo and then did a second take (also in stereo) to double track them. So in the end I am looking at 8 individual tracks for 2 guitars.

How do you usually approach panning them? I know there isn't one clean cut answer but I guess I am just looking for what everyone's tastes are to use as a good starting point when I begin the mixing process. If it helps in your answer, the two guitars are not clearly defined lead/rhythm parts (i.e. Guns n Roses style). Think more Death Cab For Cutie or Radiohead where both guitars are intertwined parts, if that makes sense.

Any input or tips you are willing to share would be awesome!

Thank you
 
Hey all!

New to the forum! I wanted to say hi and ask a question of you fellow mixing folk :)

I am currently finishing up recording and am planning to start the mixing soon. There are two guitarists in the band and for each one, I recorded the guitar in stereo and then did a second take (also in stereo) to double track them. So in the end I am looking at 8 individual tracks for 2 guitars.

How do you usually approach panning them? I know there isn't one clean cut answer but I guess I am just looking for what everyone's tastes are to use as a good starting point when I begin the mixing process. If it helps in your answer, the two guitars are not clearly defined lead/rhythm parts (i.e. Guns n Roses style). Think more Death Cab For Cutie or Radiohead where both guitars are intertwined parts, if that makes sense.

Any input or tips you are willing to share would be awesome!

Thank you
Since it's more open texture stuff, and assuming one of the mics in each stereo pair is maybe more ambient than the other, it might be good to pan each pair wide, and then balance the stereo image of each pair to taste checking in mono that things collapse ok.
I'd start without using the doubles and then blend those in as needed favoring the same pan as the part it's doubling..
Even though the pairs are panned you can still favor one guitar on one side and one on the other, just not as hard as you would on a hard left right thing. gl
 
Hey all!

New to the forum! I wanted to say hi and ask a question of you fellow mixing folk :)

I am currently finishing up recording and am planning to start the mixing soon. There are two guitarists in the band and for each one, I recorded the guitar in stereo and then did a second take (also in stereo) to double track them. So in the end I am looking at 8 individual tracks for 2 guitars.

How do you usually approach panning them? I know there isn't one clean cut answer but I guess I am just looking for what everyone's tastes are to use as a good starting point when I begin the mixing process. If it helps in your answer, the two guitars are not clearly defined lead/rhythm parts (i.e. Guns n Roses style). Think more Death Cab For Cutie or Radiohead where both guitars are intertwined parts, if that makes sense.

Any input or tips you are willing to share would be awesome!

Thank you

No matter if the two guitars play on top of each other rhythmically or not, what helps is to use different pre-delay settings on the verbs on their respective opposite side to add contrast between the two guitars on each speaker. What is important is that the dual mono panner that is towards the center side is creating the divider/separation line within the stereo field, that divider line is then offset by the pre-delayed reverb. So when you have one of the guitars panned 100%L on the left panner and C on the right panner, then the divider line is at the center and the guitar is occupying the whole left part of the stereo field with the divider line in between your eyes and the guitar is now also active in the SIDE component. That particular separation is fairly unpleasant for the listener, therefore it also helps to offset that line using the pre-delayed reverb. Keep in mind though that when you have two guitars to fill the stereo field, you don't need to pan each guitar as widely, you can for instance pan the first guitar 100%L 50%L with pre-delayed reverb 25%R and the second guitar 100%R 50%R with pre-delayed reverb 25%L. When you need more air in the center you can then lower the pre-delayed reverb, so that the guitars shift towards their sides and become more separated as unique on each speaker. Therefore the pre-delayed reverb volume faders become fairly powerful during the balancing process.

When you add the pre-delayed reverbs on the guitars, find room for when they ping back in the arrangement and in the stereo image so that you can hear them more easily and hence don't need to add so much gain. This means you have most signal left and lots of air. So when you mix, think of the air factor a lot. The air is incredibly important to create a lush sounding mix that does not exhaust the listener. Analyze the arrangement to discover how various sound sources eat up the air inside of the mix. The air is lost both by fighting rms levels and fighting peaks, both peaks and rms need to be handled for air. As a mixing engineer, learn to perceive the mix also from a rhythm perspective, this is especially important when working with guitars that are often strumming and playing rhythmically and important for succeeding with delay and reverb. To succeed with this you can use your ears, but it really also helps to add dedicated focus on how the sound sources fit rhythmically within the mix. You can for instance solo each sound source and contrast it against the drums, then as each sound source contrasts with the drums in a nice way, you can add two sound sources in solo against the drums and contrast those and so on. You can do the same when you work with the warmth of the mix, now the vocals are the sound sources you contrast against. This will really improve your mix, it will sound like the drums become much more alive, although it is really the surrounding sound sources that make the drums vital by creating space for the drums and interesting rhythm interactions. Similarly, the vocals will sound warm, although it is the surrounding sound sources that make them sound warm.

When you work with air, keep in mind that some of that air should not only be used to utilize the stereo field more effectively, but also for adding warmth to the mix. That's why you need so much air, because else you have no room for adding warmth and rhythm, and no air left after it for allowing the mix to breath. (= emotion)

So it's not only about maintaining a clean airy mix, paradoxically you also need to "add" rhythm to the mix to make it as exciting as possible, which you do in many ways, e.g., with delays and pre-delayed reverbs. So do not think of these moves from a tool perspective, think of them more from the perspective of why you use them to create what type of mix qualities, focus on the mix qualities. A mix that does not utilize the stereo field effectively can be improved.

When you pan the sound sources that go towards the sides, monitor also the SIDE component so that you maintain a good balance on each side, this will help you pan more effectively. Also be aware that if you have one side that has its fundamental frequency at say 1 kHz and the other that has its fundamental frequency at say 1.5 kHz, then the mix will sit a bit off. So try to balance the fundamental frequency between each speaker, you can for instance put two spectrum analyzers on top of each other and compare the frequencies visually on each side.

It can sound nice to have the drums sitting above the guitars in the mix, but that's also a matter of taste.
 
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Since it's more open texture stuff, and assuming one of the mics in each stereo pair is maybe more ambient than the other, it might be good to pan each pair wide, and then balance the stereo image of each pair to taste checking in mono that things collapse ok.
I'd start without using the doubles and then blend those in as needed favoring the same pan as the part it's doubling..
Even though the pairs are panned you can still favor one guitar on one side and one on the other, just not as hard as you would on a hard left right thing. gl

Thanks waltzmastering! that's interesting putting the double at the same pan positions. I'll give that a shot. I was thinking that you'd want the doubles on opposite sides from the "original" take.

No matter if the two guitars play on top of each other rhythmically or not, what helps is to use different pre-delay settings on the verbs on their respective opposite side to add contrast between the two guitars on each speaker. What is important is that the dual mono panner that is towards the center side is creating the divider/separation line within the stereo field, that divider line is then offset by the pre-delayed reverb. So when you have one of the guitars panned 100%L on the left panner and C on the right panner, then the divider line is at the center and the guitar is occupying the whole left part of the stereo field with the divider line in between your eyes and the guitar is now also active in the SIDE component. That particular separation is fairly unpleasant for the listener, therefore it also helps to offset that line using the pre-delayed reverb. Keep in mind though that when you have two guitars to fill the stereo field, you don't need to pan each guitar as widely, you can for instance pan the first guitar 100%L 50%L with pre-delayed reverb 25%R and the second guitar 100%R 50%R with pre-delayed reverb 25%L. When you need more air in the center you can then lower the pre-delayed reverb, so that the guitars shift towards their sides and become more separated as unique on each speaker. Therefore the pre-delayed reverb volume faders become fairly powerful during the balancing process.

When you add the pre-delayed reverbs on the guitars, find room for when they ping back in the arrangement and in the stereo image so that you can hear them more easily and hence don't need to add so much gain. This means you have most signal left and lots of air. So when you mix, think of the air factor a lot. The air is incredibly important to create a lush sounding mix that does not exhaust the listener. Analyze the arrangement to discover how various sound sources eat up the air inside of the mix. The air is lost both by fighting rms levels and fighting peaks, both peaks and rms need to be handled for air. As a mixing engineer, learn to perceive the mix also from a rhythm perspective, this is especially important when working with guitars that are often strumming and playing rhythmically and important for succeeding with delay and reverb. To succeed with this you can use your ears, but it really also helps to add dedicated focus on how the sound sources fit rhythmically within the mix. You can for instance solo each sound source and contrast it against the drums, then as each sound source contrasts with the drums in a nice way, you can add two sound sources in solo against the drums and contrast those and so on. You can do the same when you work with the warmth of the mix, now the vocals are the sound sources you contrast against. This will really improve your mix, it will sound like the drums become much more alive, although it is really the surrounding sound sources that make the drums vital by creating space for the drums and interesting rhythm interactions. Similarly, the vocals will sound warm, although it is the surrounding sound sources that make them sound warm.

When you work with air, keep in mind that some of that air should not only be used to utilize the stereo field more effectively, but also for adding warmth to the mix. That's why you need so much air, because else you have no room for adding warmth and rhythm, and no air left after it for allowing the mix to breath. (= emotion)

So it's not only about maintaining a clean airy mix, paradoxically you also need to "add" rhythm to the mix to make it as exciting as possible, which you do in many ways, e.g., with delays and pre-delayed reverbs. So do not think of these moves from a tool perspective, think of them more from the perspective of why you use them to create what type of mix qualities, focus on the mix qualities. A mix that does not utilize the stereo field effectively can be improved.

When you pan the sound sources that go towards the sides, monitor also the SIDE component so that you maintain a good balance on each side, this will help you pan more effectively. Also be aware that if you have one side that has its fundamental frequency at say 1 kHz and the other that has its fundamental frequency at say 1.5 kHz, then the mix will sit a bit off. So try to balance the fundamental frequency between each speaker, you can for instance put two spectrum analyzers on top of each other and compare the frequencies visually on each side.

It can sound nice to have the drums sitting above the guitars in the mix, but that's also a matter of taste.

Hey DarkRed! Thank you for the detailed response, I really appreciate it. You bring up a lot of good points with accounting for space or air as much as what fills it. It reminds me of the Miles Davis approach of writing. What's not there is just as important.

That's definitely interesting in putting the reverb track of a guitar on the opposite side of the "dry" signal. I think I understand. For pre-delay, when you say "ping back", do you mean when the reverb starts to separate itself from the dry signal? In other words, you hear the "dry" guitar in the left side and you hear "reverb" version of it in the right and its separated enough (longer pre-delay) where they do not sit on top of each other?

Also in this scenario, where would you place the double track? Would you blend it with the original at the same pan settings? Or would you place it opposite of the original?

Looking something like this maybe (as a hypothetical)?

Guitar 1 (Original): 100 L; 50 L
Guitar 1 (Original) Reverb: 25R
Guitar 1 (Double): 100 R; 50 R
Guitar 1 (Double) Reverb: 25L

Guitar 2 (Original): 75 L; 25 L
Guitar 2 (Original) Reverb: 15R
Guitar 2 (Double): 75 R; 25 R
Guitar 2 (Double) Reverb: 15L
 
Thanks waltzmastering! that's interesting putting the double at the same pan positions. I'll give that a shot. I was thinking that you'd want the doubles on opposite sides from the "original" take.



Hey DarkRed! Thank you for the detailed response, I really appreciate it. You bring up a lot of good points with accounting for space or air as much as what fills it. It reminds me of the Miles Davis approach of writing. What's not there is just as important.

That's definitely interesting in putting the reverb track of a guitar on the opposite side of the "dry" signal. I think I understand. For pre-delay, when you say "ping back", do you mean when the reverb starts to separate itself from the dry signal? In other words, you hear the "dry" guitar in the left side and you hear "reverb" version of it in the right and its separated enough (longer pre-delay) where they do not sit on top of each other?

Also in this scenario, where would you place the double track? Would you blend it with the original at the same pan settings? Or would you place it opposite of the original?

Looking something like this maybe (as a hypothetical)?

Guitar 1 (Original): 100 L; 50 L
Guitar 1 (Original) Reverb: 25R
Guitar 1 (Double): 100 R; 50 R
Guitar 1 (Double) Reverb: 25L

Guitar 2 (Original): 75 L; 25 L
Guitar 2 (Original) Reverb: 15R
Guitar 2 (Double): 75 R; 25 R
Guitar 2 (Double) Reverb: 15L

In the chorus, what are the active sound sources in total and are all of the above guitar tracks active in the chorus? Are the above guitars playing rhythmically or long lasting chords in the chorus?
 
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In the chorus, what are the active sound sources in total and are all of the above guitar tracks active in the chorus? Are the above guitars playing rhythmically or long lasting chords in the chorus?

It varies from song to song but I'd say in general, it's at least 7 different sources in a chorus usually made up of Lead Vocals, Backup Vocals, Guitar 1, Guitar 2, Keys, Bass, Drums. Yes unless it was some sort of guitar solo, I double tracked all guitar parts so the tracks I listed are all able to be active (I figured I could always take them out if need be but it was better to record the double tracks in case). I would say both play rhythmically.
 
It varies from song to song but I'd say in general, it's at least 7 different sources in a chorus usually made up of Lead Vocals, Backup Vocals, Guitar 1, Guitar 2, Keys, Bass, Drums. Yes unless it was some sort of guitar solo, I double tracked all guitar parts so the tracks I listed are all able to be active (I figured I could always take them out if need be but it was better to record the double tracks in case). I would say both play rhythmically.

OK, thanks that helps. I can only give you some general guidelines:

- If there is tons of air in the arrangement and you want to create a fat wall of guitars in the chorus, use all of the guitars and place the piano in the chorus only if there is enough air in the mix after it has been added. Don't reduce the stereo tracks into mono, but ensure as unique mix of frequencies on each speaker as possible, yielding roughly the same fundamental frequency on each speaker.

- If there is tons of air in the arrangement and you want to create a light supporting rhythm texture from the guitars in the chorus, select among the two, the guitar that sounds better, reduce the stereo tracks into mono using the better sounding microphone and place the original and the overdub on each speaker if they play roughly the same, panned hard left and right and with a pre-delay reverb on the side where there is most room. Add piano if there is room for it.

- If there is not so much air in the arrangement and you want to have guitars present in the chorus, identify the best sounding guitar capture that reduces the amount of air left the least and place it on one side with a fairly broad panning, I would say 100%L 50%L 25%R (pre-delay reverb). Add piano if there is room for it.

- If there is almost no air in the arrangement and you want to have the guitars present in the chorus, consider identify the best sounding guitar capture that reduces the amount of air left the least and place it on one side with a fairly narrow panning, I would say 100%L 75%L and if that does not work due to lack of air, reduce it into mono. Consider permanently muting the piano, alternatively the bg vocals, depending on which sound source contributes most to the best overall mix quality.

When you evaluate the amount of air, do so when the mix is at a state of maximum air. If you conclude there is not enough air, but you have not done anything to create air, then you are basically destroying the recording by muting tracks. By creating the air first, you also notice more easily when that nice air gets lost.

I hope this helps.
 
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OK, thanks that helps. I can only give you some general guidelines:

- If there is tons of air in the arrangement and you want to create a fat wall of guitars in the chorus, use all of the guitars and place the piano in the chorus only if there is enough air in the mix after it has been added. Don't reduce the stereo tracks into mono, but ensure as unique mix of frequencies on each speaker as possible, yielding roughly the same fundamental frequency on each speaker.

- If there is tons of air in the arrangement and you want to create a light supporting rhythm texture from the guitars in the chorus, select among the two, the guitar that sounds better, reduce the stereo tracks into mono using the better sounding microphone and place the original and the overdub on each speaker if they play roughly the same, panned hard left and right and with a pre-delay reverb on the side where there is most room. Add piano if there is room for it.

- If there is not so much air in the arrangement and you want to have guitars present in the chorus, identify the best sounding guitar capture that reduces the amount of air left the least and place it on one side with a fairly broad panning, I would say 100%L 50%L 25%R (pre-delay reverb). Add piano if there is room for it.

- If there is almost no air in the arrangement and you want to have the guitars present in the chorus, consider identify the best sounding guitar capture that reduces the amount of air left the least and place it on one side with a fairly narrow panning, I would say 100%L 75%L and if that does not work due to lack of air, reduce it into mono. Consider permanently muting the piano, alternatively the bg vocals, depending on which sound source contributes most to the best overall mix quality.

When you evaluate the amount of air, do so when the mix is at a state of maximum air. If you conclude there is not enough air, but you have not done anything to create air, then you are basically destroying the recording by muting tracks. By creating the air first, you also notice more easily when that nice air gets lost.

I hope this helps.

Definitely a huge help DarkRed! Thank you for the insight. I'm looking forward to getting started
 
in ableton live you can use the function " warm" it consists on separating the two sequences , adjusting bpm and finding the unrythmic parts , after that you have to adjust the rythm inside by moving warm points. it takes time but it's a really interesting work.

Sitrya
 
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