Mixing: Setting DB Maximums for certain tracks

So I am most interested in the Kick, Snare, and Bass Levels with this topic because everything else is way too differing depending on our judgement of the tracks content. But every track (just about) has a simple snare, kick, and bass. So I think I am safe to continue without getting flamed.

I am mixing a beat cd and I have just been using my ears like always but when i go to change between tracks to try and make them all similiar in levels there is variances and I have to jump back and forth...its getting old lol.

So What db range do you guys usually put the max on these tracks in? More importantly I think is how do you monitor the levels of these without relying on how clean your ears are today? haha. There is monitoring plugins but I read something about there being differences in meter plugins because there is such a small sustain on certain transients like snares but obviously something like bass you can just look at the tracks db output.

Thanks!
 
Since every production is unique and since your goals are relating to the production, your goals are to some extent automatically also unique. And the frequencies when they combine as dry tracks are also unique, therefore you have a lot of content dependencies when you start mixing. I find it's not optimal to lock down your creativity by trying to fit the content inside of the same specific parameters.

But some ballpark figures for me when I mix a pop or country song is I want the fundamental somewhere in the range 1,5 kHz to 2,5 kHz at -8 integrated LUFS when it is a female singer, which basically indicates that the height of the mix is pretty good and there is not low end energy present that is eating up the mix. If it sits somewhere in that range I know that it might be a mix that is now ready for mastering. During mastering I will then tune the loudness +- 2 dB depending on where I find its sweet spot is. In a loud EDM track, where you need quite a lot of low end attack and mid frequency intensity on the kick drum, then the low end will typically average somewhere around -22 integrated LUFS, cumulatively louder towards the sub frequencies within that average.

But, specifically, how do I know I have the low end at a good level from project to project? Well, basically I don't, I just dial in a balance that I think listeners will appreciate. Having said that, I do have specific monitoring when dialing in the low end in order to get the right attack characteristics and I do have specific monitoring for finding out do I have too much or too little low end. This is very important in mixing and mastering to be aware of. The meters are mostly just rough confirmation points, but can be of great guidance when the ears start to get tired. I do try to get the mixing and mastering of a song into 4 separate sessions, each session with specific goals. And I very often compare the height of my master against reference masters I like. On top of this I always print a number of masters of the mixes with various candidate dynamic profiles, the low end will often vary a little. Finally my ears (mostly) and my thoughts decide which print I like the most and it is the low end level of that version that automatically becomes the final. Sometimes a bit dark, sometimes not, it all depends on how it sounds, feels and progresses. A mix that is too low end intensive will not generate a lot of listens over time, so when I evaluate my prints I try to observe it objectively from different perspectives, these perspectives are technical, musical etc.

When you dial in the low end, pay attention to how that impacts on the rest of the frequency range. You can also set the vocals quiet in the mix to see is the low end then completely taking over, because if it does it struggles for room inside of the mix, you get a dense low end in that way. During mixing I tend to leave the bass guitar muted far into the mixing process, because the bass guitar can be very distracting and very sound enhancening, the combination might not make you work on the other sound sources the way you need to. Similarly, if I have some great sounding sound sources in the mix, I mute those because I know they will end up great anyway, typically some soft sounding electric guitars, those I instantly mute and my focus might then directly go to the piano that might be a bit edgy in the mix. I try to isolate that which is important and needs work inside of the mix, so that when that sounds a lot better I am now ready to bring in the sound sources I know will further enhance the sound of the mix because of how great sounding they are. So I basically try to remove all of the "glitter" about the mix, so that I can work on its raw strengths and weaknesses. This I also do during the mixing readiness evaluation stage, because often it's better to improve the production/arrangement/recording. That's often the case if the fundamental sound sources like kick, bass, snare, vocals are not good sounding, they must be good enough sounding when you start mixing. But when I mute great sounding elements, I don't rely on those making everything great at the end, my absolute goal is really to make what I have left stand on its own feet (express a great sounding mix on its own). This work can be quite heavy at times, but with Ian Shepherd's perception plugin I know that I am bit by bit making it better sounding, so that kind of directs my work towards a constant audio improvement towards my end goals. But those end goals I set especially high compared to the rest (which is why most of the hard work ends up here), because I know they will be having a somewhat dense impact on the mix compared to the rest of the elements in the mix, especially if its the vocals or snare. A great sounding mix is produced and recorded well, but also improved well during mixing and mastering.
 
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Thank you for your post! I guess I can appreciate that a formula approach may not be a good idea. There has to be a certain dynamic range that ppl like to stay in tho right? That would at least make them a little more uniform combined with a hierarchy of the 3 tracks. Its tough because almost all the info on mastering is dealing with vocals when my cd is just going to be instrumentals(rap beats). With that said I have gathered that I should be somewhere between 12-8 db DR....would you agree?

I wonder if there is a measurement of the DR of DR. Dre's Chronic instrumental version somewhere in Narnia... Id propably just shoot for maybe a couple db's above that for DR.
 
Unless you are going into something that has non-linear properties (hardware, fixed point audio formats or odd plugins with fixed thresholds) it literally doesn't matter what your overall level is.

I tend to target around -12 per individual track just because once those tracks add up you lose headroom. That's just an arbitrary number though. Targeting specific levels is more of an analogue thing because analogue stuff often has sweet-spot levels.

If you're making a track that could be played on laptop speakers or headphones or hifis I can't see how some concept of absolute level means anything. The relative levels between tracks are what matter.
 
If you're concerned with getting continuity and consistent feel on the levels from song to song throughout the cd, I'd do it as a separate process from the mixing process.

Generally called mastering, that's how 99.7% of your favorite records in your collection are done.
Even if it's for a beat Cd, whether to demo/sell the tracks or as an instrumental album, whatever,..it's easier to mix for the song and then master as an album.

Bounce out the mixes as the native/mix session sample rate and bit depth with some headroom, and open another session and process the songs individually to be cohesive as a group, then assemble. I think you're going about it the right way judging levels by ear, cause any meters can get in the ballpark, but lufs, rms, whatever.. isn't as accurate as trusting your judgement by ear to get things refined.

Also, levels vary widely where an 808 bass heavy track will have lower readings but appear louder than a rock track at the same reading.
It takes some time to get down, but I'd do the final frequency balance and level adjustments from a different session/s altogether, so you can concentrate on the "whole/complete project" as a separate entity. gl
 
If you're concerned with getting continuity and consistent feel on the levels from song to song throughout the cd, I'd do it as a separate process from the mixing process.

Generally called mastering, that's how 99.7% of your favorite records in your collection are done.
Even if it's for a beat Cd, whether to demo/sell the tracks or as an instrumental album, whatever,..it's easier to mix for the song and then master as an album.

Bounce out the mixes as the native/mix session sample rate and bit depth with some headroom, and open another session and process the songs individually to be cohesive as a group, then assemble. I think you're going about it the right way judging levels by ear, cause any meters can get in the ballpark, but lufs, rms, whatever.. isn't as accurate as trusting your judgement by ear to get things refined.

Also, levels vary widely where an 808 bass heavy track will have lower readings but appear louder than a rock track at the same reading.
It takes some time to get down, but I'd do the final frequency balance and level adjustments from a different session/s altogether, so you can concentrate on the "whole/complete project" as a separate entity. gl

Ok I will try this approach. This may be a side question but should I open a new project with all of the songs loaded in to master at the same time or individually? It makes sense to do it all at the same time but Im guessing 18 different limiters, eq, and saturation may kill me with cpu but maybe not.
 
The single biggest issue I have is the bass. I have good monitors but I have not picked up a sub yet. So how do you guys monitor the bass track specifically? For the track im currently working on I go from 16 db DR to about 8-9 when the bass kicks in (before final limiter). Is the bass to taste too? I have read a lot about the bass being the biggest culprit in eating up headroom and destroying mixes. Yet we all know how important it is for the rap genre.

Thank you guys for your input as well, I appreciate it.
 
I'd load them all, so that you can compare between them easily.
There's different ways of working, and it's good to develop a workflow that you feel comfortable with, but you could set each song up on it's own individual track within the session, with each having their own Eq and set up a limiter on the master or main bus, then adjust things individually and/or automate the threshold level for the limiter for each song, and then save each song within the session as it's own so you could go back and fine tune easily if needed.

I've changed how I go about things over the years and always refine it, but also go through an analog chain which gets a little more complicated.
Bass is always the toughest, and comes down to if you don't have a system that you trust, then your left checking it on multiple systems to see how things translate.

Having a sub isn't always the answer, because it adds another layer of room tuning and learning.
Getting to know the system and relying on your first gut instinct decision and getting that right takes time/experience and money and just putting in a lot of hours. Use what you have and improve on things as time and money allows. gl
 
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