Minimum perceptual volume change

[caustik]

Question for all you golden (or silver, or bronze) eared producers...

While you're mixing and/or mastering in the studio (or wherever), do you have a good sense of what the minimum amount of change is on the volume knob that you are able to perceive in the mix? I'm mostly considering digital studios since you're able in that case to very accurately adjust volume in at least 1/10th dB increments (that's the minimum allowed in the simplest built-in Ableton controls, anyway). I realise that this question becomes very nuanced because it depends upon your listening environment, listening levels, the EQ and dynamics of the particular audio content, etc! But still, is there any general trend you've noticed? Do you flail the knobs about wildly and organically let it settle into the spot that sounds right? Or are you more meticulous, tweaking the tenth of a decibel endlessly?

How's this for my second post in 8 years?

 

[narf]

How's this for my second post in 8 years?

Hah pretty good, keep it up

Someone talked about minimum perception (Ethan Winer perhaps?). It's probably mentioned on his website or Youtube.
For me less than 1 dB or something like that doesn't make difference. When I'm tweaking microscopic amounts it means it's time for a break.

 

[The Funk Junkie]

I'd say .3 db is where it starts to get noticeable, definitely by .5db though... I can't hear .1 db though and I'm not sure if I trust anyone who says they do haha.

 

[caustik]

I'm almost embarrassed to admit this, but I pretty regularly make tweaks in 0.2 or even 0.1 dB increments. To my ears it changes the way individual rhythms between the sounds interact with each other. One note steps on top of another where before it was just beneath, etc. In my defence, these adjustments are made before EQ, compression, and any other channel and/or mix buss filtering. So those little changes may translate into something which is actually perceptual.

I don't know, but it does seem like most of the seasoned producers say you should trust your ears... (even if those ears are slightly crazy? )

 

[narf]

Even if you don't move head to hear something exactly as it is twice or more, then the brain will change it a bit.
But yes you shouold trust your ears!

In Tape Op #86, Greg Calbi related his early experiences as a mastering engineer. I was struck by his comment that professional mix engineers would ask him if the bass or vocal is too loud or too soft. Greg explained that what sounds right or wrong when making such decisions is "fluid." Chick Corea expressed a similar opinion in a recent Keyboard magazine interview, stating that artistic judgment varies from one moment to the next. Everyone has experienced creating a mix that sounds stellar at the time, only to realize the next day that it actually sounds like crap. The frailty of auditory perception affects both amateurs and professionals alike.

 

[The Funk Junkie]

I'm almost embarrassed to admit this, but I pretty regularly make tweaks in 0.2 or even 0.1 dB increments. To my ears it changes the way individual rhythms between the sounds interact with each other. One note steps on top of another where before it was just beneath, etc. In my defence, these adjustments are made before EQ, compression, and any other channel and/or mix buss filtering. So those little changes may translate into something which is actually perceptual.

I don't know, but it does seem like most of the seasoned producers say you should trust your ears... (even if those ears are slightly crazy? )

If I end up making tweaks smaller then .3 it tends to be on multiple elements. Like if I thought the bass and snare both were balanced in comparison to the track but not each other, I might tweak one up .2 db and another down .2 db. I can't really hear the individual difference in the solo tracks but together they're now .4 db further apart then they were... Anyways, I"m rambling now but yeah, I think if you're at that point in the mix you're just about finished haha.