Loudness Wars

StoneTrooper

StoneTrooper

Music Producer
Just want some of your opinions on how loud you think the perfect mix should be with all of this loudness war stuff going on especially in EDM and Trap. Should you really have to boost your master up to compete with others. I think its ridiculous imo and like keeping a balanced mix at around 8-10db on the final and focus on dynamics instead of squashing it with a compressor and limiter. But it seems like thats what everyone is doing now.
 
"around 8-10db" is loud enough. The music needs silent parts between notes. That's how the rythm comes alive.
 
loungeclaus said:
I think between -11LUFS and -14LUFS it's a good value
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Exactemundo. The loudness wars are over.
Most services and broadcasters have installed normalisation alghorhythms that measure in LUFS and auto level the volume of everything passing through.
As far as I understand Spotify is one of the louder ones with -12 LUFS, so I use that as my target.
Anything louder than that will get levelled down and sound weak and flat in comparison with more dynamic stuff that's left untouched. -12 is still high apparently
but I think it's a good compromise between loud and dynamic.

There's also an element of fuck people that pretend they love music but can't be arsed to get a pair of decent speakers to enjoy it as it was meant to be enjoyed :{
 
Sometimes less is more. I usually mix and master all of my beats to a comfortable range. I notice that too many producers make their beats too loud and all of their instruments seem to be fighting for the spotlight. You can't expect to mix hi hats, 808, snares, and instruments and then crank them all up to max and have it sound good. I think it also depends on if you plan to have vocals on your mix. If so, then a quieter mix and master would be ideal then when the vocals get laid on it you can balance it to make it sound good... If no vocals then sometimes louder is better.
 
I loaded up a few reference tracks in Ableton. Datsik, Barely Alive, Rick Ross and they clip as is (faders left alone at 0) on the master channel at around 0 to 2 db peak and a RMS of around -3db. I always thought that was really pushing it. Maybe its because its a iTunes m4a file? Not sure. I also loaded up a funkedelic song one nation under a groove it was around -12 - -17 RMS remarkably quieter so I guess its just genre specific. Yeah I heard about those LUFs meters I'm going to check it out.
 
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StoneTrooper said:
Just want some of your opinions on how loud you think the perfect mix should be with all of this loudness war stuff going on especially in EDM and Trap. Should you really have to boost your master up to compete with others. I think its ridiculous imo and like keeping a balanced mix at around 8-10db on the final and focus on dynamics instead of squashing it with a compressor and limiter. But it seems like thats what everyone is doing now.
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The loudness depends also a lot on the peak characteristics and structure inside of the mix. You can up to a certain point depending on a number of things such as genre and type of song in the genre, increase the RMS with good returns when you have good peak characteristics and structure inside of the mix. There are other things impacting also, for instance the quality of the stereo image. There is inherently nothing wrong with a loud and clear mix, the issue is the quality of the frequencies in that, which is the art to master. The RMS level also needs to be balanced in terms of stability, so that it moves the listener both thanks to breath but also thanks to that "peace" factor. A hit mix has breath, peace and silence in balance both individually and collectively.
 
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DarkRed said:
The loudness depends also a lot on the peak characteristics and structure inside of the mix. You can up to a certain point depending on a number of things such as genre and type of song in the genre, increase the RMS with good returns when you have good peak characteristics and structure inside of the mix. There are other things impacting also, for instance the quality of the stereo image. There is inherently nothing wrong with a loud and clear mix, the issue is the quality of the frequencies in that, which is the art to master. The RMS level also needs to be balanced in terms of stability, so that it moves the listener both thanks to breath but also thanks to that "peace" factor. A hit mix has breath, peace and silence in balance both individually and collectively.
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Hey dark red, long time no see:)
 
pinkslot007 said:
This loudness war issue is driving me up the wall...
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Then don't bother with it. You're just learning techniques that will be obsolete soon.
There's currently a real push in the industry to end it once and for all, and the auto levelling algorhytms going up mean that already on a lot of the big services that super loud mix isn't doing you any good and will just get turned down. At the lower volume it's just gonna sound flat compared to tracks to do retain their dynamic range.

Also, if you do want to compete.. the only way to really get a good loud as fuck mix that sounds great is to deliver a well balanced mix to a really good mastering engineer.
He can then make it pump, but he'll probably tell you that, to do that, he actually needs a good balance, and a lot of dynamics.. so you're still back to square one ;)

Slap a limiter on your master bus if you want some loudness, otherwise, don't bother. Music doesn't naturally sound good at that level, it's not meant to. You can work at it, and make it appear to sound good..
but you sacrifice a lot. And seriously, fuck people with shitty speakers.. I'm not stooping to that level. Let them get better ones if they want to enjoy my music as it was meant to be enjoyed. Otherwise I'm not
taking them or their opinions serious.
 
You guys say auto leveling like radio isn't a thing anymore. Anyway, depends on the genre and the medium you're putting it on. Afaik, Soundcloud doesn't have any autoleveling. I have mastered EDM to the point of -2RMS on the drop. A better value would be -5RMS. For other genres, you might consider going for -9, -12, depends on what you're going for really. Master with reference you like and you'll be fine.
 
When a client wants it loud you have two options: 1. You either try to explain it isn't that simple (case a track doesn't accept that aggressive limiting, due to different instruments... etc, making it highly distorted), or best case scenario, 2. the mix allows that kind of compression and limiting.

Sometimes I'm even afraid to look at the LUFS metter when mastering my tracks... the reference I sometimes use for Trap/EDM is DjSnake's "Turn Down For What". And thats loud mainly due to the thick and continuous bass eating all available headroom when the other instruments stop playing (for me this is the master of sidechaining).
 
Loudness war is not going to end soon
I always look at my reference tracks

Some part of my music even go higher as -8 LUFS

It depends on genre, reference ....
 
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