K712's do not translate: Whats better? DT880's?

DimensionX

New member
I do EVERYTHING on headphones, obviously if I could, I would use monitors as I know they are more suitable. But after having the K702/K712's for 5 years I've decided they make everything sound too good - meaning they do not translate well or allow you to mix properly. My mixes tend to sound too bassy since they are indeed open back. I understand the logic; if I have open backs I will hear a more accurate representation of bass as opposed to closed-backs where there is too much bass - which translates into having not-as-much-bass. The other question I had was is there an open back headphone that has more bass than the k712's that may translate better, and that doesn't sound overly scooped in the mid-highs to highs? They are very pleasant headphones to listen to and I think they are great as a second pair of headphones to check mixes, but not a primary


But if not I am thinking my next journey in headphones is the DT880's, because they are SEMI open, I have hopes that they will be right in the middle (I also have the DT770's but 32 ohms (which I think I should get 250's))


What are you guys experience, and is there a pair of headphones you find really translate accurately? I don't like sonarworks headphone calibration plugin or anything similar so that is out of the question.


Edit: also I have the 02+odac combo. Will they drive whatever headphone you suggest or is there something better?
 
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German Maestro GMP 8.300D , IMO, best headphones for production out there. DT770 and sony hd 25 are way bass heavier then the GM. Also, virtually indestructable.
 
When it comes to monitoring it is important to be good with reading and understanding rms and peak levels across the frequency + stereo spectrum, that you can trust. In my opinion that should be the focus because it is your insurance policy against poor monitoring when you are aiming for a pro sound. It is also good to know the relative loudness between their lows, mids and highs, as well as 'lows + mids' vs highs, and lows vs 'mids + highs'. For instance you need to understand what builds up the perception of the low end, is it because of direct velocity in that frequency range, is it building up due to lack of mids for instance, or is it building up due to too little velocity in mids and highs combined... etc... You simply have to understand what's building up the perception in the various frequency ranges.

In general it is difficult to achieve a good sound with a single pair of headphones, but if you can find say 3 good pairs and their individual gain sweet spot, then in combination with A/B you can achieve a pretty decent translation.

I think the Audio Technica M-50x with the short cable are worth a purchase, incredible value for the money, they work with any amp and provide a good reference when you A/B.

In general closed back headphones work better because they tend to produce somewhat more bass and that tends to provide somewhat lighter mixes. A bass heavy mix is the artist's work down the toilet, it is incredibly important to not have too much low end in the mix.

When you mix it can be good to mute the bass and kick first, then bring in a little, in this way you tend to bring in more low end frequencies from the other sound sources and you can fill up the low mids more and brind in more combined warmth, it is also important because the low end can become distracting, you need to be able to focus on getting the mids and highs good first of all. Then when you add the bass and kick you won't have to add as much signal, but to enhance the perception of the lows at those lower velocities you can side chain compress the kick and bass with competing sound sources in the same frequency range. (be gentle/precise) This makes it so that you get a light punch, enough perception of the low end and a bright overall frequency response. Focus that side chain compression only to the frequency range where it is needed. The warmth in the lower mids is very important, it has to shine through without creating an overall muddy sound, try to bring it out towards the side, so that the center stays clear. You are losing warmth if the cutoff is too steep, try to make the cutoff not so steep, but cut it steeply right at the end to remove rumble noise in the low sub frequencies. Try to bring in the bulk of the low end from a stringed sound source other than the bass guitar, and make that stringed sound source pump with the kick drum and snare. I think the best is two different electric rhythm guitars with a big body, one panned L, the other panned R. Organ, piano, pad, acoustic guitar you can fit on the inside of those and then add the vocals and snare panned in between (in terms of width). The cymbals I like to have panned far right and left. The hi-hat I want near the center. Percussion I want outside of the hi-hat. Pedal steel and pad I want at the stereo sweet spot on the inside of the outer edge. I want delays and reverbs very far out, very airy and lush.

I like to start with the mids and highs with the bass muted. When the highs are somewhere near the target , I bring in a little bass and kick, so little that I think it is still too quiet for the final. Now I dial in the mids to near the target levels. Then I finally bring in the low end to near target while keeping an eye on the meters. Then I iterate a little to set the rms and peaks to near my target. Then I start to A/B and engage various monitoring solutions. During this work I do a lot of M S relative balancing and focus a lot on the sound of the S component. I have specific rms and peak level ranges I target across the frequency range for the S component. Having the right frequency response and levels on the S component is incredibly important, that is where much of the perception of a pro sound comes from. You can have a weak noisy signal there or a well gained clear awesome sounding one.

Although I think the monitoring solutions in terms of hardware is very important, I do think the work with monitoring is equally important. I think for instance it is important to bring in the L and R side individually in mono to both ears at the same time to be able to perceive the sound of each side as if it was a stereo mix of its own, especially when the side component is sent that way, because two ears can perceive more and when you apply both ears to each dimension individually, you get better sound on each and the product combines into a superior sound. Similarily, it can be good to mix sound sources that are grouped to be localized to sit at some specific position, with a dedicated monitoring solution for each. This makes it so that these sound sources separate more and you get a better overall sound because the stereo field is not "smeared".

You should be vary careful with headphone monitoring solutions where you have way too little power to drive the headphones. Certain headphones from e.g. Audeze, Sennheiser etc. require a very powerful amp to drive them. It's all about getting "into" the sound and that requires enough amplification. That's also why you have to find the gain sweet spot because you get more into the sound at that gain level, the frequency response is somewhat more flat there and you can perceive more of the stereo image there. In combination with lots of headroom in your hardware it creates a great sound.

I could use the K712 and DT880 for certain things but would rely on other ones such as the M-50x for more heavy duty work.

If any of you know of any headphones that are way way better sounding than the M-50x, please let me know. But be honest.
 
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I'd recommend the following:
srh440
q40
m50x
Everybody says german maestro is flawless outside of soldered cable. (would've been my first pick)
I've seen reviews saying the ultrasone 900/dt series was piercingly high at regular volume levels so I steered clear of em.
 
When it comes to monitoring it is important to be good with reading and understanding rms and peak levels across the frequency + stereo spectrum, that you can trust. In my opinion that should be the focus because it is your insurance policy against poor monitoring when you are aiming for a pro sound. It is also good to know the relative loudness between their lows, mids and highs, as well as 'lows + mids' vs highs, and lows vs 'mids + highs'. For instance you need to understand what builds up the perception of the low end, is it because of direct velocity in that frequency range, is it building up due to lack of mids for instance, or is it building up due to too little velocity in mids and highs combined... etc... You simply have to understand what's building up the perception in the various frequency ranges.

In general it is difficult to achieve a good sound with a single pair of headphones, but if you can find say 3 good pairs and their individual gain sweet spot, then in combination with A/B you can achieve a pretty decent translation.

I think the Audio Technica M-50x with the short cable are worth a purchase, incredible value for the money, they work with any amp and provide a good reference when you A/B.

In general closed back headphones work better because they tend to produce somewhat more bass and that tends to provide somewhat lighter mixes. A bass heavy mix is the artist's work down the toilet, it is incredibly important to not have too much low end in the mix.

When you mix it can be good to mute the bass and kick first, then bring in a little, in this way you tend to bring in more low end frequencies from the other sound sources and you can fill up the low mids more and brind in more combined warmth, it is also important because the low end can become distracting, you need to be able to focus on getting the mids and highs good first of all. Then when you add the bass and kick you won't have to add as much signal, but to enhance the perception of the lows at those lower velocities you can side chain compress the kick and bass with competing sound sources in the same frequency range. (be gentle/precise) This makes it so that you get a light punch, enough perception of the low end and a bright overall frequency response. Focus that side chain compression only to the frequency range where it is needed. The warmth in the lower mids is very important, it has to shine through without creating an overall muddy sound, try to bring it out towards the side, so that the center stays clear. You are losing warmth if the cutoff is too steep, try to make the cutoff not so steep, but cut it steeply right at the end to remove rumble noise in the low sub frequencies. Try to bring in the bulk of the low end from a stringed sound source other than the bass guitar, and make that stringed sound source pump with the kick drum and snare. I think the best is two different electric rhythm guitars with a big body, one panned L, the other panned R. Organ, piano, pad, acoustic guitar you can fit on the inside of those and then add the vocals and snare panned in between (in terms of width). The cymbals I like to have panned far right and left. The hi-hat I want near the center. Percussion I want outside of the hi-hat. Pedal steel and pad I want at the stereo sweet spot on the inside of the outer edge. I want delays and reverbs very far out, very airy and lush.

I like to start with the mids and highs with the bass muted. When the highs are somewhere near the target , I bring in a little bass and kick, so little that I think it is still too quiet for the final. Now I dial in the mids to near the target levels. Then I finally bring in the low end to near target while keeping an eye on the meters. Then I iterate a little to set the rms and peaks to near my target. Then I start to A/B and engage various monitoring solutions. During this work I do a lot of M S relative balancing and focus a lot on the sound of the S component. I have specific rms and peak level ranges I target across the frequency range for the S component. Having the right frequency response and levels on the S component is incredibly important, that is where much of the perception of a pro sound comes from. You can have a weak noisy signal there or a well gained clear awesome sounding one.

Although I think the monitoring solutions in terms of hardware is very important, I do think the work with monitoring is equally important. I think for instance it is important to bring in the L and R side individually in mono to both ears at the same time to be able to perceive the sound of each side as if it was a stereo mix of its own, especially when the side component is sent that way, because two ears can perceive more and when you apply both ears to each dimension individually, you get better sound on each and the product combines into a superior sound. Similarily, it can be good to mix sound sources that are grouped to be localized to sit at some specific position, with a dedicated monitoring solution for each. This makes it so that these sound sources separate more and you get a better overall sound because the stereo field is not "smeared".

You should be vary careful with headphone monitoring solutions where you have way too little power to drive the headphones. Certain headphones from e.g. Audeze, Sennheiser etc. require a very powerful amp to drive them. It's all about getting "into" the sound and that requires enough amplification. That's also why you have to find the gain sweet spot because you get more into the sound at that gain level, the frequency response is somewhat more flat there and you can perceive more of the stereo image there. In combination with lots of headroom in your hardware it creates a great sound.

I could use the K712 and DT880 for certain things but would rely on other ones such as the M-50x for more heavy duty work.

If any of you know of any headphones that are way way better sounding than the M-50x, please let me know. But be honest.

Wow firstly let me say THANK YOU. For your in depth response. I will heavily take into consideration what you are saying and try my best to apply it just because you spent this much time typing all this. Do you have any tracks you have worked on so I can see if your knowledge translates to your actual work? Cheers

My next question is a VS question:

HD 25's vs HD 6 Mix vs m50x - Anyone have extensive mixing experience with any of these and knows which one translates best?
 
You need real monitors, period, if you want good translation. That said, Sony 7506's are an industry standard in both music/audio production and film for a reason.
 
Wow firstly let me say THANK YOU. For your in depth response.

HD 25's vs HD 6 Mix vs m50x - Anyone have extensive mixing experience with any of these and knows which one translates best?

No, pros help each other based on trust.

I would choose the m50x among those, the other ones have too much color in my opinion.

You can listen to the cans here:
https://soundcloud.com/sonic-sense-pro-audio/sets/headphones-test
Notice the play count on the m50x, that's for a reason. I have both the m40x and m50x, big difference, the m50x are much better. I am not sure that the sound clips for m40x and m50x are correct on that SoundCloud site, they might have mixed them so that m40x is m50x and m50x is m40x. Anyway, listen to both and notice they are both transparent to the original source and know that the m50x are way better in practice. The m-50x have a very nice compression in the low end, so you can check more easily how much emotion your mix has compared to the one you A/B. This also means they are great for normal music listening. I am blown away by these cans, you just throw more source quality at them and they just deliver.

But overall when it comes to headphones, you need to find out how each can be used to your advantage, each can bring useful added information.

As you can tell from listening to the sound clips on that list above, headphones color the sound a lot, so for serious work you should consider great monitors in a great room configured in a great way as your number one monitoring solution. At the same time listeners these days use headphones a lot when playing music, so cans are always useful as a reference. The fact that monitors and cans color the sound a lot, generally means yes your mix is always going to sound different and somewhat worse on some monitoring solutions. What you want to avoid is having resonant peaks at certain frequency ranges becoming a problem on various monitoring solutions, the mastering engineer is your insurance policy against that. Overall during mastering it is important to solo sweep and soften any resonant peaks that could become or are an issue on various monitoring solutions, it is quite common that this happens in practice because there is not enough work with the rms and peak levels and also because the frequency response of the individual sound sources have become negatively altered by various processes, so that when they combine they add up to significant resonant peak issues. Many times it is due to a combination of poor acoustics in the recording room and poor processing added on top. Good monitoring solutions capture these issues well, but when that is not so good either it adds to the issue.

Although it is important to hear the sound truthfully, that is only a part of the equation, another major part of that equation is to send true frequencies to them to begin with. These two go hand in hand - when you can hear sound truthfully you can send more true sound to them and the other way around.

But no matter what your monitoring solutions end up being, you have to learn and understand them.

Here you can check the frequency response:
HeadRoom Headphone Graph Comparison Tool
 
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