How important to you is the loudness level of a track?

moon.

New member
Say you're browsing Soundcloud or whatever, how important is it to you that a song be at a comparable volume to "industry" music? Do you agree with sacrificing dynamics for volume? Do you think that compressed, loud music sounds bigger and better? Are you less likely to listen to a song if it comes on and is quiet in comparison with the last track you heard? Have you ever played a song that you can't turn up loud enough to enjoy because you are on a system with limited gain?

What spurred this post was great insecurity about the volume level of my tracks.

Sorry for posting a bombardment of questions... Hopefully it starts a good discussion.

Cheers
 
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nice topic...that track which you posted is unavailable (but listened to other tracks of that channel and they arent quiet)

compressed, loud music => now i cant even listen to them...to give an example: 'new' Gramatik's music (on soundcloud)...too loud, somehow unatural compared to his earlier project. thats my thinking

so, i like more 'quit' (= not very compressed music, because you can hear every element nicely) and i dont have a problem to turn my volume on speakers..:)

*also old songs, from like 80 (jazz, soul, blues) arent compressed so they give you better atmosphere and you still enjoy to them...so why changing that method..? :/
 
Thanks jocasrb.

A nice point about stuff from the 80s...modern enough to be comparable to current music but old enough to not always be smashed to hell. I definitely resent the loudness wars when I hear a song (usually rock) in which the loudest part, usually the chorus, sounds quieter than the ¨quiet¨ parts because of how smashed it is.
 
I was just talking to a rap artist last week about this very topic after we finished up a session. He said #1 if the mix doesn't sound good then he doesn't bother no matter what the beat is like. He knows when he gets the trackouts and I mix it, it will sound a lot better, but he can't ever really get into it to write lyrics if the mix isn't good. And if he doesn't write anything to it, then obviously he's not going to use the beat. #2 the beat has to be in the general ballpark of mastered volume. It doesn't need to be loud as hell, it just needs to be in the ballpark. Making your beat 2dB louder than someone else's isn't going to help, and if it's 2dB quieter it isn't going to hurt. But if it's like 7dB quieter than everything else, then that's a problem - because earbuds on a cell phone will only go so loud. That's really the only issue with the volume - headphones on a cell phone. If your beat is so quiet that maxing out the volume control still doesn't give him enough volume to get into it, then you are screwed.
 
- I'm virtually never bothered by stumbling across a song that sounds too quiet. Sometimes I'm bothered because I find a song that's just too loud.

- Sacrificing dynamics to gain volume is just dumb. It really does make it sound worse. And even if we pretend the listener doesn't have a volume control, most services have volume leveling built in now. Spotify, iTunes, even YouTube. The volume advantage of a loud song gets turned down anyway.

- Admittedly, I virtually never listen on a system that can't play louder. I remember the old days, when computer speakers were unamplified. But we're a long way from that. Cellphones and earbuds can go plenty loud, loud enough to damage.



Of course, you need to bring your track up to a reasonable level to be heard. But that level is lowering, thankfully. Conservative mastering volume is plenty, and I aim for slightly more conservative than that. Read up on Ian Shepherd's blog if you want to learn more.
 
The trouble with comparing quieter versus louder is that the ear almost always prefers louder. But if you make the more-compressed and less-compressed tracks the same level, the less-compressed track just sounds better. Make this your standard, and people will adjust their volume controls according to their listening level (as they do anyway).



There are two kinds of dynamics you lose when you compress too hard, push the volume too hard:

1) Micro-dynamics: the volume variation within a given measure.

You want the drums to slam, you want there to be volume movement. Whether you call this power or drive or funk or groove, there needs to be quiet within a measure to make the loud part of a measure sound loud. It makes you want to move.​

2) Macro-dynamics: the volume variation across sections of a song.

The listener adjusts the volume so the intro and verse sound big and full, but then the chorus comes in just a little louder and fuller, and it just soars. That's great! But you can't do that if the intro and verse are already full volume. Preserve dynamics so that the climax of your song has the power it needs to sound its best.​


Without quiet, there can be no loud.
 
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Say you're browsing Soundcloud or whatever, how important is it to you that a song be at a comparable volume to "industry" music? Do you agree with sacrificing dynamics for volume? Do you think that compressed, loud music sounds bigger and better? Are you less likely to listen to a song if it comes on and is quiet in comparison with the last track you heard? Have you ever played a song that you can't turn up loud enough to enjoy because you are on a system with limited gain?

What spurred this post was great insecurity about the volume level of my tracks.

Sorry for posting a bombardment of questions... Hopefully it starts a good discussion.

Cheers

The volume level in itself is important but up to a point. It is for instance an issue if you cannot listen to a mix louder because you already have the speaker volume at max. But the volume itself does not do that much to the emotion of the mix. But when the input tracks sink into the noise floor, the mix loses its vitality. What I find important is for the audio to become up front at the target loudness. That I think you can achieve by using LCR panning and compressing the audio very much in multiple stages at very mild compressor settings, have lots of side chaining in front of it and remove the unpleasant "power" after it using multiband compression. In fact I just asked Chris Carter about his thoughts on how to do this properly, unfortunately he just left me out in the cold...
 
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I was thinking about this recently as well. I can't speak for a recording artist or the average music consumer, but I think the whole dynamics/loudness issue is blown out of proportion, or at least dramaticized by aspiring producers/mixers that heard an old school mixer complain about it once. Truth is a lot of the noobs in the music industry "protesting" about the lack of dynamics in modern music can't even properly identify when something is heavily compressed or not, as you can hear in their own music/mixes. My opinion is, a lot of the music I like (rap, pop, EDM) sounds good when it's loud and up front.. A lot of theses songs are meant to sound aggressive, which is often times achieved by putting many sounds right up front in the mix. There's a difference between being loud, and being squashed. There are plenty of commercial tracks out there that I think sound really good and aggressive and have ridiculously high RMS levels, but the engineers knew how to create perceived transients with various mixing techniques so it all worked out. When I listen to old songs, like Michael Jackson or funk or something like that, yeah the mixes sound nice, but I'm always telling myself "man that would sound good if the kick had some more oomph to it, or that drumkit was slamming harder," but that was not the style for that era and genre of music. Sure there might technically be more dynamics in the older songs, but who's to say that more dynamics is better? Some of my favorite songs have high RMS levels and I would not have it any other way. Now back in the day if you tried to push the compression on those songs the consumer might not have liked it, but that was in their time, this is our time, and things have changed. I would NOT want my tracks to sound like an 80s pop or funk song..I like bangin kicks, and hard hitting snares.

It is also my opinion that it doesn't matter how low in volume your track is at the production and mixing stage if it sounds good and balanced. You can immediately identify an amateur mixing job because everything will sound pretty flat, so no matter high you turn up the volume it's going to be a bad mix. But if a great mix has low RMS levels, as soon as it's played by someone (excluding the radio or club) they will at least give it a couple seconds and turn it up to hear it, and when they do, they will hear the great balance and depth youve created and continue listening. Now the reason the loudness wars began was because of the radio.. they played tracks at the same volume so naturally some masters they got were louder than others, and found that people perceived the songs that were louder on the radio to be better, so since the radio doesn't adjust the volume for each song, the mastering engineers started squeezing the juice out of these things to get that edge on the radio. Same thing with the club. I'm not a DJ, but often times is seems they do not adjust the level of each song (unless it was drastic), so you'd want to make sure it is pumping so people perceived it as a banger. I might be off on the club reference, but I have been to many underground shows and so many people looked lame on stage because their backing tracks had no energy.. people need to hear that bass hittin and snare slamming for hip hop stuff. I've never seen a DJ at an underground show turn up someones beat because the vocals were too loud compared to it unless someone went up to him and asked him specifically to do so.

Overall my sentiment is, don't worry about it on the production or mixing end, unless you're acting as the mastering engineer as well, and the song is going to be played on radio and the club, in which case you should spend some time learning to get it to an acceptable level without squashing it. If the artist who buys your beat is going to have it mixed and mastered by someone else, it's their responsibility to get to a proper level. My tracks usually end up around -12db RMS, which is a nice middle ground in the mix stage, but most stuff I hear on the radio is around -9db RMS. When I play my mixed beats for clients or other producers, I've never heard that my RMS is too low, and I get a lot of compliments on my mixing.

One other thing to look into is, if you're going to be posting something on Youtube or Itunes, do some research about the their RMS level limits/algorithms; both of those sites will not allow RMS levels past a certain point, and will turn your music down for you when it coverts it, so if you mix the final track too loud, Youtube or itunes may turn it down via compression, and it could mess with your mix. Interesting stuff.
 
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anything with vocals needs to be mixed for radio to me. it doesn't sound right to me if its not leveled properly once i started making music but like, most people don't actually notice it. its astonishing how many people don't notice the difference between something being mastered and something not.
 
it is very important. but you have to choose and ask yourself "what do I want to express with the track?" - you shouldnt have a dbs level of -5 on a country song... know what I mean? ;)
 
Obviously, it would be nice to not have too reach for the volume knob too often; but if I come across a track that's quiet i will just turn it up. I won't skip over a song just because it's not at the same level as a professional track.
 
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