Formula for Delay settings...
- Thread starter ^Tripper^
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neilwight
Guest
60,000 diveded by the bpm gives the delay per 1/4 note.
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KasioRoks
Guest
Tripper,
Don't bother taxing your brain let someone else do it for you. I found a wicked music calculator here which does triplets and all sorts, which just used to make my head hurt!
Hope this helps
KasioRoks
Don't bother taxing your brain let someone else do it for you. I found a wicked music calculator here which does triplets and all sorts, which just used to make my head hurt!
Hope this helps
KasioRoks
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RobinH
Guest
NO ! Tax your brain , the closer you get to the bone the more you really understand. Then you can use the tools that make it easy because you know what they do , and then you can go beyond their limitations.
At least thats how I rationalize my masochism
Maths is good and it is very deep . A close relationship with it can only help in the field of sequencing and Sound Engineering. Using it you can take your creativity to new plateaus , just using mindlessly you can produce mindless geeky music. Let it inspire you and become second nature and then it will enhance your creativity.
At least thats how I rationalize my masochism
Maths is good and it is very deep . A close relationship with it can only help in the field of sequencing and Sound Engineering. Using it you can take your creativity to new plateaus , just using mindlessly you can produce mindless geeky music. Let it inspire you and become second nature and then it will enhance your creativity.
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KasioRoks
Guest
Yeah.
spend your time learning that 60000 divided by bpm multiplied by 2 & divided by 3 gives really long dubby delays. Einstein is reputed to have not known his own 'phone number, because he could always look it up.
maths is great, it's pure aesthetics - but you don't need to understand boolian algebra to use a soft-synth & create something amazing.
KasioRoks
spend your time learning that 60000 divided by bpm multiplied by 2 & divided by 3 gives really long dubby delays. Einstein is reputed to have not known his own 'phone number, because he could always look it up.
maths is great, it's pure aesthetics - but you don't need to understand boolian algebra to use a soft-synth & create something amazing.
KasioRoks
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RobinH
Guest
No but it can only help.
You don't need to know how a PC works to use it but you do to fix it.
You don't need to know how a mixing desk works to make music but you do to mix it.
A good workman knows his tools intimately and how and why to use them , and then he never blames then when things don't work right ... he just learns ways of getting round the limitations.
The simplistic bpm formula should be second nature and when it is you can start to see mathematical relations between tempos , so perhaps your track might change tempo
There is something called the golden mean ... a ratio of 4:5 ... when things follow this pattern they become meaningfull and pleasing to the eye and the ear. This is one of the many areas where maths can enhance your art.
Don't turn down knowlege and information , you can only be poorer because of it.
And possibly get your figures wrong now and again , eh
You don't need to know how a PC works to use it but you do to fix it.
You don't need to know how a mixing desk works to make music but you do to mix it.
A good workman knows his tools intimately and how and why to use them , and then he never blames then when things don't work right ... he just learns ways of getting round the limitations.
The simplistic bpm formula should be second nature and when it is you can start to see mathematical relations between tempos , so perhaps your track might change tempo
There is something called the golden mean ... a ratio of 4:5 ... when things follow this pattern they become meaningfull and pleasing to the eye and the ear. This is one of the many areas where maths can enhance your art.
Don't turn down knowlege and information , you can only be poorer because of it.
And possibly get your figures wrong now and again , eh
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KasioRoks
Guest
Robin,
got a real difference of opion here. If you want to fix pc's learn about it, if you want to make music pay someone else to fix yours when it's broken. You don't need to know how a mixing desk works to mix, you need to understand (be able hear) what it does to sounds - two very different propositions. I suppose you should know the formula a delay calculator is using, but computers are great for that kind of thing. I'm not convinced that having a respect for mathematical aesthetics will help you make better music.
I guess my point is this: we have limited time here, which unfortunately means that we can't learn about everything - we do have to close off avenues of investigation. The hard (impossible?) part is knowing which ones not to follow.
None of the above is meant as a dis, just MHO.
KasioRoks.
BTW the Golden Mean 'phi' is more like 5:3 or 55:34 (or even more accurately 1.6180339887499...)
got a real difference of opion here. If you want to fix pc's learn about it, if you want to make music pay someone else to fix yours when it's broken. You don't need to know how a mixing desk works to mix, you need to understand (be able hear) what it does to sounds - two very different propositions. I suppose you should know the formula a delay calculator is using, but computers are great for that kind of thing. I'm not convinced that having a respect for mathematical aesthetics will help you make better music.
I guess my point is this: we have limited time here, which unfortunately means that we can't learn about everything - we do have to close off avenues of investigation. The hard (impossible?) part is knowing which ones not to follow.
None of the above is meant as a dis, just MHO.
KasioRoks.
BTW the Golden Mean 'phi' is more like 5:3 or 55:34 (or even more accurately 1.6180339887499...)
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RobinH
Guest
You do for some of them. You need to know the routing structure and electonic pathways opened by switches ... then you can decide how to get the cleanest sound with least signal path. These are big consoles though.
Pythagarus was. I am. It is just one way ... really good with sequencers as they are based on mathematics , perhaps not so relavent for a keyboardist
None of it really matters , we should do as much as possible , whatever takes our fancy. Create , Destroy, Enjoy.
But how much time passes like water under the bridge , and do you fully utilize all your time. I doubt there are many people who can say they do , and so there is always room for improvement.
Expand your Mind , and your As* will surely follow.
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KasioRoks
Guest
Robin,
checked your site today. I guess all the formulae and logic does work for you 'cos that is some nice stuff you've got going on. As for pythagoras, he thought that beans were human souls in transit to their next life and he nicked pi from the Egyptians and got all the credit!
D'you really think maths is useful for sequencers?
Umm .... free your mind and your *** will follow (I dance pretty hard which stops my arse expanding).
How did I get onto this? keep it gripped.
KasioRoks
checked your site today. I guess all the formulae and logic does work for you 'cos that is some nice stuff you've got going on. As for pythagoras, he thought that beans were human souls in transit to their next life and he nicked pi from the Egyptians and got all the credit!
D'you really think maths is useful for sequencers?
Umm .... free your mind and your *** will follow (I dance pretty hard which stops my arse expanding).
How did I get onto this? keep it gripped.
KasioRoks
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RobinH
Guest
Why thank you !
I really do. My understnding of groove is based on it.
Rather than just use recycle to chop things up and automatically quantise relavent parts , I like to slice everything up , find its exact note points , and then look at the wave forms and see how many miliseconds it takes for them to reach maximum aplitude ( ie the attack ) and to decrease ( ie the release ).
Then I map it all out on graph paper so I can really see how things are pushing and pulling a gainst each other and how this builds the groove.
This way I really understand something and don't just use tools to effect it. Often with this level of detailed analysis you find the tools aren't good enough for the job and only hand placement will do.
This level of understanding is the same a drummer gets by practicing his chops over and over again ... he gets right inside the groove and understands it inside out.
I really do beleive in the efficacy of this method.
Have a look at the groove tutorial in the links section on the site and I have instructions on how we used to groove things old skool style before recycle and other tools came along. With just an S950 sampler , a peice of paper and a calculator.
Try it a couple of times and it will give you a greater understanding of using the automatic tools. Go on , give it a go .... what you got to loose ? Apart from time , but I do beleive it is time well spent.
Sounds like a sensible precaution.
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Ataxia
Guest
I dont think math will help you WRITE a ausome track imo.. but it can help you make your track more powerfull knowing all those tricks like delay settings, how certain frequencys affect people, ect
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RobinH
Guest
Precisely , but a mathematically ordered mind will. Motzart was one such man.
Ancient music atributed mathematics and music to the same thing ... the harmony of the spheres.
Indian Music requires that the neurones in your brain be firing in some kind of mathematical order.
When you say music and divide it from maths I think you are labouring under a delusion born of our culture. In reality there is no separation.
Ancient music atributed mathematics and music to the same thing ... the harmony of the spheres.
Indian Music requires that the neurones in your brain be firing in some kind of mathematical order.
When you say music and divide it from maths I think you are labouring under a delusion born of our culture. In reality there is no separation.
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KasioRoks
Guest
Robin,
I'm still not convinced. All the maths stuff comes pretty easily to me, but I can't honestly say that it helps me create music. All the stuff you've talked about I can work out from first principles, should I have to ... but why?
Obviously it does work for you, but if you wanted to use the word 'mindless' about someone who doesn't want to learn about the formulae behind certain things then I could use the word 'formulaic' about someone who does apply them.
And I'm sorry but your thing about Indian music - what is that supposed to mean? Are you saying that there's a neurone formula for Indian music?
Once again just MHO,
KasioRoks.
PS how do you know how Mozart's mind worked. More importantly what do you mean by a mathematically ordered mind?
I'm still not convinced. All the maths stuff comes pretty easily to me, but I can't honestly say that it helps me create music. All the stuff you've talked about I can work out from first principles, should I have to ... but why?
Obviously it does work for you, but if you wanted to use the word 'mindless' about someone who doesn't want to learn about the formulae behind certain things then I could use the word 'formulaic' about someone who does apply them.
And I'm sorry but your thing about Indian music - what is that supposed to mean? Are you saying that there's a neurone formula for Indian music?
Once again just MHO,
KasioRoks.
PS how do you know how Mozart's mind worked. More importantly what do you mean by a mathematically ordered mind?
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RobinH
Guest
There were some experiments reported recently in Scientific American and other journals where they were analysing a discovery with Motzarts 2 piano concereto. It has been repetedly shown in experiment that the concereto when played to somone in pain can null the pain. This was taken as far as one german doctor perfoming surgery on a patient with no general anasthetic.
Encephelograph scans showed that the music in some way triggers a firing of neuronal paterns that focuses in certain areas of the brain , this has the effect of blocking pain signals that enter these areas for processing.
Wondering what might be the cause they decided to do a comparative analysis of the music and other musics not efficacious. They discovered it was to do with the spacing and amounts of dynamic peaks in the musics .
These same patterns are present in some birdsong and in some natural sound fx such as waves breaking on the shore.
The study went on to look at the encephelographs of musicians as they were playing and amongst indian classical musicians thay made some fascinating discoveries , deep consistant brainwave patterns emerged with different rytmic cycles and ragas.
Please , now you are misquoting me. I said using mathematics blindly can produce mindless geeky music. And I will stand by that ... that streatches from C++ programers making self generating algoritmic music that ignores soul , to the lazy person who reaches for the quantise because he can't be bothered to really get inside the groove.
The state of mind that is developed by working out mathematical calcs oneself or even better in the head can only help improve the will to do it in those other areas requiring such dedication. And for all the reasons I have said before , I think having a familiarity with maths can only help in the field of sequencing and sound engineering.
The fact that it is a major part of academic courses dealing with these subjects should be some indication that it is generally considered important outside of the bedroom.
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KasioRoks
Guest
Robin,
sorry to misquote you, more of a misinterpretation rather than a deliberate cheap rhetorical trick.
Studies like the ones you mention have been going on for a long time - pain management is a very important part of medical science. The question is, though whether it is the music or the focusing on the music which is important. These sort of discussions very soon end up in very deep phenomenological waters about the distinction between brain and mind. Other studies show that similar results can be achieved by various breathing/meditation exercises, which I would guess show similar encephelograph results.
The response to all this is to ask whether Mozart's genius was anything at all to do with an understanding of neural physiology. Yet somehow he managed to tap into an effect which can now be noted down. Crazy. His intuition allowed him to feel what medical science can barely scratch the surface of.
Another example: a footballer (sorry Yank pals, that's soccer player to you) doesn't have to know about the differential calculus that can be used to describe the path of the ball as he whacks it into the back of the net. All of that complex maths - are there any footballers who use that rather than intuition?
I'm not saying don't learn any maths, 'cos it is handy, but creating music around it? The thought of plotting a graph of beat placement against time to come up with a funk formula (which if you've met a drummer you'll know they categorically don't do in order to get a feel for a groove) just seems like some kind of Harry Enfield characterisation.
One final point, are you saying that one day we'll be able to tap into a machine some code like "joyful+rush" and it will be able to work backwards from what those words mean in terms of a pattern of neurone firings and then produce a piece of music with the correct spacing of peaks and troughs?
KasioRoks.
sorry to misquote you, more of a misinterpretation rather than a deliberate cheap rhetorical trick.
Studies like the ones you mention have been going on for a long time - pain management is a very important part of medical science. The question is, though whether it is the music or the focusing on the music which is important. These sort of discussions very soon end up in very deep phenomenological waters about the distinction between brain and mind. Other studies show that similar results can be achieved by various breathing/meditation exercises, which I would guess show similar encephelograph results.
The response to all this is to ask whether Mozart's genius was anything at all to do with an understanding of neural physiology. Yet somehow he managed to tap into an effect which can now be noted down. Crazy. His intuition allowed him to feel what medical science can barely scratch the surface of.
Another example: a footballer (sorry Yank pals, that's soccer player to you) doesn't have to know about the differential calculus that can be used to describe the path of the ball as he whacks it into the back of the net. All of that complex maths - are there any footballers who use that rather than intuition?
I'm not saying don't learn any maths, 'cos it is handy, but creating music around it? The thought of plotting a graph of beat placement against time to come up with a funk formula (which if you've met a drummer you'll know they categorically don't do in order to get a feel for a groove) just seems like some kind of Harry Enfield characterisation.
One final point, are you saying that one day we'll be able to tap into a machine some code like "joyful+rush" and it will be able to work backwards from what those words mean in terms of a pattern of neurone firings and then produce a piece of music with the correct spacing of peaks and troughs?
KasioRoks.
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RobinH
Guest
but mate .... unless you are using a drummer to get the grooves a computer ain't going to do it for you. We are not talking about instrument playing here or music composition but sequencing and engineering. The best engineers do understand what is happening to the sound when they EQ it , infact they are often the ones who make the EQ , G Massenburg for instance.Likewise the best programmers have a firm grasp of maths. Of course it is a million times easier to get musicians to play your grooves and infact your whole song for you , but when all you have is a computer then you can either have the hit and miss aproach , which is move your clips around until they all are in the groove or you can place them in a place that has been arrived at by mathematical calculations and then fine tune them by ear. The second method produces results in a fraction of the time of the first.
In the RAW project peices we have been working on ALL the material is programmed , nothing is there as musicians played it on sessions. Some of the hammond layers on Inner Peace are 4 deep when the guy only ever played one line. All the sax parts and flute parts have been arranged from cliped sections anything from 2bts1/4 to 4bars1bt1/2. When you have the ability to analyse a players timing mathematically you can start to really get an understanding of how you can replicate that on a sequencer page so it sounds as though that player plaid it. The musicians have been very suprised at how I blended their playing. Creating bits they never thought of and sometimes bits they meant to play.
Now I am certainly not saying that intelect should replace emotion , one without the other is useless. But movement is about ballance and by intesifying one you can intensify the other as long as you show equal respect. Many computer musicians are pleased by the ease at which they can create music but frustrated by the difficulty of stepping beyond the machines limitations. This happens with any instrument and the way beyond is practice. Getting deeply into your medium and getting to know its root and most intimate characteristics. On a computer this is mathematics , binary maths to be precise. In a sequencer page this is a timeline divided into mathematical intervals. New interactive musics are creating the possibilities for multiple time lines and eroding the traditional format of start begin end.
The kind of mind frame it takes to solve mathematical calculations and the kind of mind frame to push beyond the limitations of your sequencing program are similar if not identical. The ability to hold that mind frame for long periods of time allows you to work indepth for longer.
Back to your footballer analogy , they may not know much maths , but do you think they bother to work out at the Gym before a match. And why use the Gym , it is not an accurate representation of the field ....
Here already mate. A proffessor called Clynes at MIT has come up with a thing called Superconductor. This is based on a C Sound programming language that has been around for some time. There are 2 data arrays , one describes the instruments and their sonic characteristics in a physical modelling format. And the other provides the score. This includes all the information that midi would and also a massive extension so that a whole array of emotional commands can be interpreted within the playing of the score. If you do a search for Clynes+superconductor you should come up with the transcript.
I think BBC2 did a 4 part documentary on it a couple of years ago , and the guy from the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra , basicaly said thats me out of a job then when he heard rthe results. He was stunned.
This technology is just being born and represents a movement in AI too , to explore the emotional patterns of conciousness and try to replicate them within a machine.
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KasioRoks
Guest
Robin,
OK I give up, I'm going off to learn about AI and then I'm gonna get a computer to produce music for me. BTW I wasn't saying get a drummer to drum grooves for you, I meant just use your ears rather than formulae (it doesn't take that long to hear if something sounds right).
see you in another thread,
KasioRoks
OK I give up, I'm going off to learn about AI and then I'm gonna get a computer to produce music for me. BTW I wasn't saying get a drummer to drum grooves for you, I meant just use your ears rather than formulae (it doesn't take that long to hear if something sounds right).
see you in another thread,
KasioRoks
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RobinH
Guest
Use the formula then your ears , it is quicker. Creativity is about speed , espescially on a computer.
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Ataxia
Guest
If its just formula how would you call that part of the process creative?