Analog Summing... Benefits?

CPhoenix

CharlesAllen/ BMR Studios
I hear a lot of talk about analog summing from engineers who are very experienced. I one day want to get to that level of sound engineering....

What are some of the benefits of analog summing? What exactly is going on inside those summing boxes that really makes a difference to the end product? I'm assuming it's a huge difference since they're so expensive.
 
The difference is far from HUGE.

Analog summing sounds better but the difference isn't worth it IMO unless you have a big budget.
 
It's a stupid hype IMO. A good occasion for companies to sell horribly overpriced boxes with a dozen wires inside to all those people who are too lazy inform themselves about digital audio processing. And yes, a huge amount of "experienced" people like to push the hype even further with their esoteric comments.

Short story, the sonic wonders people are experiencing has nothing to do with the summing process, its related to the make-up amp required after analogue summation and most of all to the extra AD/DA loop. More accurately, the analogue summing does nothing else than substantially increase the noise floor by reducing the output level by several dozen dBs (which then needs "make up" gain afterwards to reach 0dB VU again with strong amplification).

You can achieve the same effect by looping your signal in this way:

[DA] -> [Amp 1 (reduce the level)] -> [Amp 2 (make up the level)] -> [AD]

From the purely technical point of view, digital summation is perfect. And in contradiction to what many people believe, "perfect" actually sounds fantastic! It's deep, wide, fat and crispy. Incredibly solid stereo stage, perfect linearity over the full bandwidth, zero distortion and a noise floor magnitudes below everything known before. It's just really hard to convince people to pay thousand of $ for a simple "+" addition. Much easier in the analogue world where people see magic in any piece of copper...
 
It's just really hard to convince people to pay thousand of $ for a simple "+" addition.

I was with you up until here lol. What do you mean by "+" addition. Do you mean a plugin? Or are you just talking about how DAWs generally work? Do all DAWs technically 'digital sum'?

Just wanna make sure i'm understanding right.
 
Yes, I'm talking about an addition. All DAWs simply do: Track1 + Track2 + Track3 + Track4

Say the waveform amplitude of the 4 tracks look like this at a certain point:

1.0 + 0.2 + -0.5 + -0.4

..they will simply sum to 0.3 without losses..
 
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no one can really argue that analog summing is good or bad bc its opinion but imo I think it is worth buying. I had the privilege of talk to the justice league mix engineer , Edward Nixon and he swears by it. Also so does Manny Marroquin from the hit factory. The thing is if you dont have an extremely good clock and convertors there is no way you can justify a summing mixer...but there are other benefits such as headroom and depth. But those who are educated enough to have a legitimate argument about analog summing are either extremely pro summing or against it.... The thing is digital is just 1's and 0's it doesnt know anything else so sometimes you can lose certain frequencies when summing to a two track. but its a tough arguement on both ends so...its probably better to purchase an extremely good clock, convertors, and monitors before a summing mixer...but I do want one!!!
 
I had the privilege of talk to the justice league mix engineer , Edward Nixon and he swears by it. Also so does Manny Marroquin from the hit factory.

This is a very light weight "argument". The old school engineers have the most difficulties with the matter. They learned their craft in a time were all available tools were either physical or electronic. Both worlds are still not fully understood until today, so audio engineers were used to use their instincts, artistry and hard learned experience to work with these kinds of tools. Many never had any education in the digital context and approach the topic with their old philosophies (which are perfectly fine for the analogue world).

The problem is, the digital world is totally counter-intuitive (something musicians and artists don't like at all ;) ). But its effects can be fully understood mathematically (something that isn't possible in the analogue domain), which simply means that you can't argue about it. No hidden mojo magic.

Even people like George Massenburg and several other of the most respected audio engineers/gear developers have (had?) obvious difficulties to understand most basic concepts like the nyquist/shanon theory. These stupidities are well documented all over the web in several articles (I hope he learned a lot in the meantime ;) ), music magz are full with this nonsense too...

...and this is exactly the kind of misconceptions I am talking about:

but there are other benefits such as headroom and depth

Well, you must be a very optimistic person if you call these things benefits.

The digital world has either no headroom at all or unlimited headroom, depending how numbers are represented internally. You can't improve it. Impossible. But with an analogue summing with extra DA/AD loop, you can increase the noise for no reason, increase distortion and fvck up the stereo image because of crosstalk effect, you also reduce the bandwidth and thus distort the phase and weaken the transients. Not enough, the mandatory extra DA/AD will also introduce all the above + quantization and most of all aliasing distortion.

This is what you hear when using passive analogue mix boxes. You hear the "weaknesses" of your infrastructure. Of course, such an effect is sometimes exactly the right thing. But in this case, I recommend you to simply "insert" analogue processors that actually do something useful and not mess with the heart of your core infrastructure and workflows. This warming effect has nothing to do with the passive analogue mix stage, it's all about the surrounding signal path.

Just look inside these boxes. You'll see nothing, nothing, a dozen wires connected together with a simple resistor and they nothing again. 2000$ WTF!

The thing is digital is just 1's and 0's it doesnt know anything else so sometimes you can lose certain frequencies when summing to a two track.

Well, the analogue world is only made of electric state and the dozen wires mentioned above. You can be certain they don't know much about your music either. It's cheap plastic and copper.

And no, digital summing is perfectly flat, you don't lose anything (but analogue summing does).

Thing is, digital music signals are neither stepped nor are they restricted to 0 or 1. But it's too easy to fool people with sh!t in the audio scene.
 
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live and this is the same way Ifeel about modified mics,preamps,audio interface ppl just don't know just like Moses is trying to the board for years now

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Just look inside these boxes. You'll see nothing, nothing, a dozen wires connected together with a simple resistor and they nothing again. 2000$ WTF!

This is essentially what I was getting at when I asked the question.

To me it just looked like internal cable routing of some sort, from the outside looking in. At $2K and up, you'd think there's some supernatural process going on inside that makes everything sound "better" at all times. Some "mojo"/"shine"/"warmth" that you can only obtain from electric currents, yada yada. But it doesn't sound like thats the case.
 
Moses is completely correct. If I wanted analog summing for anything like transient rounding, stereo smear, or increased noise floor I'd do it with a tape machine or with some kind of emulation. On rare occasion, the only thing I'll want is the stereo smear, but I've found plenty of acceptable ways to do it in software.
 
I'm with moses and matt on this one. I'd go one step further though and say that I would just an analogue studio or live pa mixer to do the work for me and then take the resulting mix back in to the daw. anything else unless I want the sound of tape recording and then reading as well is overkill.

A dozen wires and one resistor with in's and output sockets for $2k - damn I'm scamming in the wrong market.... (that's a total of about $10 components and $1990 profit)
 
That looks a lot like the summing network I put on the output of a small hifi amplifier to turn it into a headphone distribution amplifier in 1987, except of course your pic is the opposite.

Here's a link to a summing unit made by unitaudio

Unit - Unit Audio

read their copy very carefully because for the life of me I cannot see how they are adding anything to the signals rather they are taking stuff away through the use of resistors to drop each signal down to a maximum level and then bussing each side of the signal (L/R) to one of two output sockets. Each bus can be shifted to be mono if needed (i.e. the entire bus can be switched onto the other bus, so that it has equal signal in left and right fields).
 
illuminate us then, please

I can't believe people are on here explaining sound with math. The bottom line is analogue summing makes a difference. Whether it's positive or negative has to do with the quality of your gear, if you know what you're doing and what you're looking for. If you analogue sum and in addition add outboard gear the difference becomes even more drastic.

Tell you what? Get a burl B32 summing box, try it out for a month and I dare you to return it.

I dare you!

Someone made a comment about the amount of money they ask for summing boxes/analog gear. Well, I've seen some cost no more than some pricey plugins, however, something like the burl will hit you up for 2K. It's funny though. I bet y'all making' that statement about price of summing boxes with an $800.00 cellphone (oops I meant mobile device) in your pocket or that 2500.00 Macbook Pro, etc. C'mon Man!

Now, If we're talkin' a mackie mixer, or peavy with a focusrite sapphire interface, ok. Digital summing will kick ass but when you get into "the good stuff" it's a totally different party.
 
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sorry I can see what you are trying to say but you have not justified your statements

i.e. yes, a good quality summing box will cost a decent amount of money but the ones that were previously offered up were sub $500 and most likely costing less than half of that to manufacture somewhere in China. Regardless of the quality of the box, however, without pre and post summing amplification to make up for lost gain in the process, the process reduces quality, rather than enhances it, no matter how you shake the tree

P.S. I do not own a mobile phone nor do I own a macbook...
 
sorry I can see what you are trying to say but you have not justified your statements

i.e. yes, a good quality summing box will cost a decent amount of money but the ones that were previously offered up were sub $500 and most likely costing less than half of that to manufacture somewhere in China. Regardless of the quality of the box, however, without pre and post summing amplification to make up for lost gain in the process, the process reduces quality, rather than enhances it, no matter how you shake the tree

P.S. I do not own a mobile phone nor do I own a macbook...

I see your problem. You're being too specific and making an argument with variables you deem important.

First of all the OP asked if analog summing makes a difference. The answer is, it does. It doesn't matter what box you're talking about unless it's crap and the OP didn't mention anything about "crappy analogue summing" and even still, it makes a difference. Pre and Post amplification is a part of the whole summing process just like putting gas in your car makes it run. The OP didn't ask anyone about passive summing devices which are rare these days. He asked about summing in general which includes summing devices that already have built in amplifiers.
 
If the gear is as perfect as didigital, analog summing provides no improvement. If it adds some distortion, then, it can be musical or not. It's not a magic wand.
 
If the gear is as perfect as didigital, analog summing provides no improvement. If it adds some distortion, then, it can be musical or not. It's not a magic wand.

Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. First of all "gear's" job is not to be "perfect". "Perfect" doesn't mean it sounds better and that's not even the discussion here. In addition no one ever said analogue summing is a "magic wand". If implimented incorrectly or used in instances where it does not produce the best results, it's not a "magic wand". However in many instances it's a desire option to purely digital (ITB) options. Again, I repeat, the OP asked if it makes a difference and in many cases the answer is still YES. If you want to make some "sideways" argument, you can but maybe that's best left to another thread.
 
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