Short Circuiting the "10,000 Hour Rule"

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zoo

zoo

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WARNING: This is a long thread and it contains controversial opinions. It is designed to frighten the unambitious, the lazy or the "quick-fix" type of member we often see on these forums.


Hey all,

Firstly I would just like to say I don't usually post threads on here giving advice; claiming to be an experienced producer, broadcasting my successes and claiming to have a secret to earn a lot of money out of this....I don't want to be associated with any of the ridiculous stuff dudes post around here claiming to be gurus. You can mainly find me on the feedback forums, looking to give and receive critiques on beats. That's about as far as I go these days on here.

(I am by no means an expert, but I have managed to achieve more than most would in two years of production)

I find that there are a lot of dudes on here ruining the experience for the rest of us. There are producers here that spend their time putting up short, brief threads totally lacking in vital information or informative content. I feel a lot of these dudes are just making noise, trying to get you to hit the "Play" button, or hit their website link in the signature. Get them hits up.

While I know some of these guys have good intentions, many are merely trying to make the most white noise. These are largely attention seeking posts, attempting to give out limited or recycled information for maximum brand exposure. I have often private messaged various users on this website who claim to be "in the know" looking for further clarity/advice on a specific detail or in relation to a specific query. It's funny. You RARELY get a reply. Why? These guys don't see the value in helping the "one". They are only interested in mass exposure.

A lot of you are on here for one thing, and one thing only, brand recognition and growth. I must ask you; do you truly understand what customer service is? It is about catering to the unique individual, not the masses. If you can make every single person who comes into contact with your brand feel special, feel important and see the exponential value in dealing with you, THAT'S when you are being successful in your attempts to build a revered reputation in the musical sphere. Not when you spout some bullshit claiming to be in the money, making huge profits...yet your post(s) give absolutely no new insight into any particular discipline. There are many of you out there who are frauds of the highest order.

This forum has a disease. The disease are these leeches I speak of, sucking the forum dry of all real purity and value. They are merely here to make noise, flap their wings without actually flying, and try and LOOK the part...they see this forum as a marketing tool. Not a community where we bounce ideas off each other, a forum which was probably originally built on the concept of mutual musical growth.

Anyway, this was a long introduction which genuinely has no obvious relevance to the reason I have posted here today. I just really want to make it clear that I am NOT one of the members I speak of above.

I am by no means an expert, I am still very much on the beginning of my journey...but here are my two cents:

Recently, I came across a post on the "Getting Started" section. It was created by a beginner, frustrated with the lack of progress he has experienced in the area. The answers were the usual, generic answers we typically see on this forum:


  • Learn music theory
  • Watch a boat load of tutorials
  • Learn how to play instruments
  • TWO MONTHS?!?!?! TRY TWO YEARS THEN COME BACK TO ME!
  • Research
  • Study
  • Learn
  • Copy
  • Do what is already acceptable
  • Look at what has already been done and replicate

BandCoach (definitely not one of the leeches I speak of above) advised the OP of the 10,000 Hour Rule. For those of you interested, pick up "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell on Amazon. This book was a revelation. It is a fantastic read and it WILL totally change the way in which you look at what it means to have "skill" in a field.

Now, I'll say it again, I am by no means an expert. I have only been making beats for about two years myself. I fell in love the second I finally made the jump to begin the process. I have been addicted ever since. My first REAL love.

However, I can tell you a few things about my experiences which I firmly believe are the correct conclusions to make from my time doing this...

After watching a few basic tutorials about how to use and navigate your DAW, you are WASTING YOUR TIME if you continue down the tutorial, research, learn, study path. Stop researching! Stop watching damn videos with minimal application! Stop wasting your time learning what has already been done.

There are no rules in music. If you want to be a musical revelation, I would advise you to ignore all the ****ing rules.

Think about any revolutionary in ANY field that inspires you. Take Einstein and his Theory of Relativity as an example. He was initially ridiculed for his views, his techniques, his abstract ways of thinking. His new perspective was initially seen as a comedy act. Now it is scientific and physical gospel. Or how about Nelson Mandela? He was persecuted for his anti-apartheid agendas, but yet, he persisted and he was successful in his goals, and fundamentally, achieved a better way of life for many South Africans. The examples can go on and on...and that's without even touching on music itself.

If you want to make a difference musically, don't follow anyone's route. Find your own path.

Open up your software and start experimenting heavily.

Ask yourself, when do you learn the most? Is it in the classroom? Or the lecture hall? Or is it when you go out into the world and practically apply yourself? Do we learn through experience or through theory? Do you figure out how to write an essay from attending an essay writing seminar or do you learn how to write an essay through writing drafts and receiving feedback on the those drafts? I think we all know the answer to the questions I pose here.

It is the repetition of the DOING of a task which results in vast experience in a field. It is NOT grueling over theory and wrestling with concepts you don't fully understand as of yet, because, well....you haven't actually experimented or tried to learn anything for yourself yet. You need to figure out a new unique style, you need to figure out how to make things happen in your own unique way.

Forget everything you've heard on here about the 10,000 hour rule. How you must learn an instrument. How you must watch all these videos on EQ, mastering, mixing, basslines, music theory...the list goes on and on. You need to understand the fundamentals, of course. However, you also need to understand how to bend these fundamentals, or put your own spin on them.

JUST START DOING. USE YOUR EAR. USE YOUR INTUITION. USE YOUR INSTINCT. LEARN THROUGH EXPERIENCE.

(You can worry about music theory, instrumentation and the more complex areas of musical excellence once you feel you are getting places with your intuition, instinct and ear. At present, I am starting to teach myself the keyboard after TWO years of purely intuitive composition. I feel NOW I am better equipped to UNDERSTAND what I am actually learning...because, well I already have a grasp of it by trial and error, by using my ear, my instinct, my intuition.)

I guarantee you will learn at an astronomical rate if you start learning in a practical way.

I can also guarantee if you figure out how to do something for yourself, you will never ever forget that method. If you watch a tutorial, I guarantee you will have to refer back to that tutorial countless times in order to replicate the techniques within. This is simple operations management. Your work flow is everything. You want to be efficient. You want to waste as little time as possible, right? Then learn for yourself.

Are you going to remember how to master a track perfectly from watching a one hour tutorial and later, opening up your DAW and trying to recall the techniques you just "studied" and apply them to a track you have created from your own unique mind and space? With your own choice of sounds, with your own perspective, and your own creative stamp? Are you going to impress the listener by using all the techniques that another sound designer is already using, for his own specific sound, which is in stark contrast with your own?

You simply won't. No matter what you say, this is art, not Maths. This is an abstract creative field, not Physics. Your sound design is unique to you. It requires your own experiments, your own choices, your own methods. There is no point in copying what has already been done.

If you are patient, this is the best way to learn.

The 10,000 rule is a dirty dirty myth

I recommend you all watch this video and change the way you learn TODAY:


 
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I was going to disagree pretty strongly with your post.

Then you tied it back together by saying what I understand to be this: "first, do, THEN learn why and how."

In fact, I know no other way, as I trained myself by ear to figure out sounds that work and notes that seemed to fit together.

My order, so far, has basically been: spent about 5,000 hours on a Trinity Triton (that was 10 years ago), spend about 750 hours messing around with Fruity Loops in my spare time while launching my other career and starting a family, all the while listening intently to musicians in various genres and from various times. Then, I recently bought a Roland FA06. I spent about 300 hours with the new knowledge I had from years of listening to reacquaint myself with the process.

Only THEN did I bother to teach myself how to play the keyboard and basic music theory (and even then only enough to know intervals, scales, chords, progressions and how the different modes feel). And the REASON I did that was critically important to me: it wasn't to figure out how to be like someone else. It was to take my learned understanding and figure out why things sounded good and why they sounded bad so I could accelerate my own ability to create.

I spent the last few months basically taking every scale and its chord progressions and figuring out how each one sounds using common techniques and progressions. I do this mostly as a shortcut. Training my EARS to know (and learning the lingo to take meaningful notes, both on paper and mentally) what sounds good.

I have now started supplementing that by listening to the artists that I am INSPIRED by and learning how to write and play what they put down. And I do this ONLY to expand my own toolbox.

What I've learned through that is that every great musician in the past 50 years has smashed the rules.

I recently made a hip hop version of a Muse song that way (again, only to learn what I can do differently) and realized they aren't playing in any designated key or mode, they were using a LOT of accidentals (something a music theorist would tell you to avoid or use sparingly) and a LOT of power chords (another thing that music theorists caution to use sparingly).

And I'm better for it. I still have a long way to go to be where I want to be, but this process has helped me refine my vision of what that should look like.

So, long story short, there's no one way that works for everyone. Some learn music by ear and instinct, others by linear thinking, and others by logic and math.

But if you want the best way to ensure that your own unique musical voice is developed and brought to its highest level, I'd recommend taking the OP's advice. Do first, then learn, then do again. Rinse and repeat for as long as it takes for you to execute the way you want to. Many "rules" you will come to understand can and should be not broken but smashed into bits.
 
EnviZion said:
I was going to disagree pretty strongly with your post.

Then you tied it back together by saying what I understand to be this: "first, do, THEN learn why and how."

In fact, I know no other way, as I trained myself by ear to figure out sounds that work and notes that seemed to fit together.
Click to expand...

Precisely. You've put my thread into a nice short, snappy sentence there! I feel a lot of the time beginners are given the wrong or an overwhelming amount of advice on which way to turn.

They may even spend large amounts of money and time grinding out a great set up, all the required equipment...killing hours learning theory they do not yet have any understanding of only to get frustrated and throw in the towel. While starting at music theory will be optimal for some, it will be a really challenging foundation for others.

Rather, I firmly believe a beginner should start with the bare minimum requirements to make some sounds. If they enjoy it and are encouraged by their progress, then I believe it would be right, at this stage, to invest more money and time into developing a knowledge of the intricacies of musical production.

Great post, your journey so far is an inspiring one. Keep it up, and thanks for your interaction with my article.
 
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Ain't nothin' wrong with this site. People get too uppity about music. It's not like most people here are making a full time income from music. So let people come here and flap their wings and make noise. Why do we have to have people put others down all the time? Hating is the biggest disease I see
 
There is a difference between hating and telling the truth and you don't know the difference as the OP is doing the latter which we should all strive for.
 
10,000 hours ain't really a dirty myth. if you want to short cut or short circuit your way there I'm sure you can. but like everything there are trade offs. 10,000 hours is time that you'd spend with something because you love it. it becomes an all-consuming passion. you don't do it because it's a magical number that determines you care. it's like getting a degree in college. i think 10,000 hours is a number that is a long time. it's over a pure year. a year is 8,760 hours. that means that you spent over a pure year of your life working on, learning, or "mastering" whatever it is that you're doing.

and if you're on a daw, it shouldn't be that tough to do. how much time do we spend on these message boards, online posting, and uploading, surfing the net and "wasting" time. is it that hard to have your daw open working on music? scrolling for extra tutorials or looking for answers to your questions from other posters. trial and error.

if you care about what it is you're doing, that's time well spent. if it's a video game, look at it like an rpg. you can go through all of the side quests, leveling up each of your characters, and exploring all the worlds. you can easily go through the game or speed through it to beat the game. but it's the journey. it's cliche but it's true. if you turn on the cheat codes, you're gonna wonder if you could actually beat the game without the codes, if you turn on the cheats, the fun factor of the game starts to deteriorate. you win, or you level up but it's not the same.

if you ever played pokemon, the game was way more fun when you leveled up the characters and did it manually than when some poke"master" told you how to get to the island with the infinite rare candy. so relatively speaking, the 10,000 hours thing is probably going to teach you the reasons why rare candy works, so that you can make it yourself, whereas trying to short circuit yourself to the island with the infinite rare candy is going to compromise your love for, or the fun of the game.

how much doper is it when you're playing gta and you've "got the federales on your tail" and you're tryin to shake em, in comparison to knowing you can do the cheat code and automatically make em disappear? i mean your heart's gonna be racing, you're gonna be yelling at the screen, laughing, way more into it, than if you know if you press circle, triangle, square, r trigger, left, left, x. because even if you get caught/wasted in that situation, it's still more fun. that's why it's a game. that's why you learn what you learn, because you genuinely love it. that's what you want to do, because you don't know what else you would do.

you gotta ask yourself the question, why do you do what you do?
 
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tReHoLLa said:
10,000 hours ain't really a dirty myth. if you want to short cut or short circuit your way there I'm sure you can. but like everything there are trade offs. 10,000 hours is time that you'd spend with something because you love it. it becomes an all-consuming passion. you don't do it because it's a magical number that determines you care. it's like getting a degree in college. i think 10,000 hours is a number that is a long time. it's over a pure year. a year is 8,760 hours. that means that you spent over a pure year of your life working on, learning, or "mastering" whatever it is that you're doing.

and if you're on a daw, it shouldn't be that tough to do. how much time do we spend on these message boards, online posting, and uploading, surfing the net and "wasting" time. is it that hard to have your daw open working on music? scrolling for extra tutorials or looking for answers to your questions from other posters. trial and error.
Click to expand...

Hey man, thanks for your response. You make some really great points. Great use of examples, particularly GTA.

I am not arguing for some shortcut to success or skipping some important and logical steps...or "cheating" in a sense.

We are talking about short circuiting the starting process here. Let's say (purely for argument purposes) you spend the first 2.5k hours learning the basics of music production, I am trying to shorten this time, and this time only. If we can reduce the learning curve in the beginning, we reduce the 10k marker considerably, right?

If we first begin with a process of experimentation and we fully exhaust this process, and then we move on to the more difficult musical concepts. The learning curve is greatly reduced as we have some practical basis to relate the more difficult elements to. It makes the whole process less frustrating and less scary.

Because I started off through trial and error, now that I am finally learning an instrument, I already have some knowledge of some keys and chords. This has made the process much much easier for me to grasp. I understand how I can use these concepts practically and apply them straight away. If I do it the reverse way, I'm not so sure this would work out quite as well!
 
When I first began (attempting) learning music, I was like alot of internet-era beginners-"Meh, no need for lessons-why waste hours learning all that stuffy shit when I can watch some youtube videos and experiment on the keys?"
This was my mentality for about roughly two years of trying and failing to teach myself theory and piano (and guitar). After hitting brick wall after brick wall after brick wall, I decided to take music lessons and theory classes at a community college. I advanced my knowledge and skill in 6 months of organized, mentored study than the entire 2 years I spent trying to teach myself through YT, forums, and random google searches. Not to say the time was a complete waste, just that my foundation and understanding was weak from such a sloppy, nonlinear approach to learning.
My point is, with the right approach, those 10K hours will shrink dramatically. Some people have said, "well, did you need to spend all that money on lessons and classes to get where you are now when you could've used the internet for free?" I say, yes, I got where I am skillwise in two years of focused practice, experimentation, and learning. Had I stuck to my old ways,continuing to believe I could just circumvent the basic fundamentals of music learning through unfocused experimentation, YT videos, forums, and Google, it would've probably taken me 10 years. This doesn't rule out trial-and-error and experimentation-in fact, focused learning makes trial-and-error a much more efficient process. Instead of having to hit 200 moving targets-you only need to try to hit 10. It also makes experimentation much more rewarding as you can not only hear what where you want to go, but your knowledge informs you intuition of what the possibilities are. Too many people spend (and waste) time looking for shortcuts. I don't preach it anymore because people won't listen. Everyone wants to learn as fast as possible as cheap as possible-let 'em.
Not nearly as pro as I would like to be (lessons with my instructor reminds me of that), but closer than I would be if I had chosen another way.
 
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You know, this is a pretty interesting post and I'm pretty compelled to respond.

My take on it is that 10,000 isn't exactly the number of hours that you should spend making music. Rather, it's more of the idea that you should spend a lot of time doing it. Practicing it. Breathing it, learning it, etc.

In a nutshell, what you are saying is exactly what the 10,000 hour rule is implying; that you should just jump right in to music and experiment, mess around with sounds, learn how to do basic things, as well as off the wall techniques.

I do agree with the idea that watching most tutorials after you've made music for a while can be pointless. With that said, I think it's important to define the kind of things you might be watching. It's best to learn from producers that you admire and look up to. Sometimes, they might not even be tutorials that you watch, but maybe live streams to get a glimpse into the way others work. Or perhaps you just chat with other producers to reinforce some of the things you've learned and see other fresh perspectives.

To me, learning from your favorite producers, as well as other fellows, in this way is all part of the 10,000 hour rule. Also, to me, the 10,000 number is nothing more than a general idea conveying the same thoughts you are thinking.
 
I call semi-bull shit

I call bull shit once you said not to watch any videos, stop watching tutorials ect.

Why even go to f u c k i n g school then if you just need to "Do what you feel".

Thats kind of derp advice to tell someone not to stop watching videos and to just do what they think its right or how they think something should sound.

I would half agree that you should use your own ears, but at the same time just because you "Think" your ears are telling you something sounds good does not mean it actually does. I am sure there are people using $50 microphones on this very website who think their shit sounds amazing to their ears and if you let someone else hear it they will tell you its not so great.

I would fully agree there are no rules in terms of "Making music how you want it to sound"

But I call bull shit when you strait up say to stop watching videos ect and to learn yourself as if everything is more easily learned without videos.

Example #1 - I put a gun on the ground and jam a bullet in it on purpose, I tell someone who has NEVER touched a gun before to fix the problem.
What is better, A: Learn it yourself and try to fix it or B: Watch a f u c k i n g video and see how its done so you don't f u c k shit up.

I think the answer is obvious

Example #2 - You are taking a wood shop class in school, you have to operate machinery that can cut your f u c k i n g fingers off if used wrong
What is better, go learn it yourself and figure it out, or watch the teacher do it first or a video???

The answer is obvious

I don't care what you say, having someone teach you or watching a video on how something is done or the basics is going to make you learn 10x faster than someone who is just sitting on their ass trying to figure shit out alone.

Will they figure it out alone? Maybe, but how much time did they waste by trying to figure shit out that is already FIGURED OUT???

Why would I want to try to figure out how a compressor works when I can watch a video of someone telling me EXACTLY how it works
Why would I want to try to figure out what button records vocals when I can google it and find out instantly what button makes me record
Why would I want to try to figure out how big the sun is, when I can go on google and already know the answer
Why would I want to figure out anything that already has an answer and does not effect my ability to learn????

I will disagree all day on that

There is no point to NOT watch videos on how to do things. I have learned a shit ton of things from videos that save me hours, days, weeks and months of learning.

Do you know how f u c k i n g long it would take to learn all of the stuff in my DAW without watching videos or getting more information from google or someone else??? That shit would take 20x longer and I would not even be half way where I am now.

The point is that you watch videos that explain something you do not currently know, then when you watch it you KNOW it instantly which saves you time. Then you can go take what you just LEARNED and PRACTICE IT, then after you practice it you can USE IT to however you please.

So explain to me, how exactly can I PRACTICE EQing if I don't even know how to ****ing EQ!!!!!!

The only way you can PRACTICE something is if you know how to do it or have an idea how it works.

You can't practice throwing a football if you can't even throw a football
You can't practice eating food if you can't even get the food in your mouth to eat it
You can't practice something unless you learned what you are suppose to do first

And even if you are practicing something does not mean you are getting BETTER.

I can give a monkey instructions how to build a plane out of lego's, but the monkey is still going to suck ass at building lego's because he has no clue wtf he is doing.

The same way is with people trying to learn themselves, can it be done? Yes, is it the easiest and fastest way to learn? HELL NO!!!

I learned some things myself, and the things that I did learn myself took forever compared to the things I learned by watching videos.

Here is proof

Take 40 random people off the street who know nothing about music, give them all a Equalizer.

20 of them have to learn how to use it without no help and the other 20 get to watch a video on what a Equalizer is, what it does and how to use it.

Tell me which group will come out knowing more after 1 hour after messing with the Equalizer.

So yes, I call bull shit.

I say WATCH and LEARN from other people just as much as you are hands on and make your own sound.

The world we live in right now is run by people who are doing things because they LEARNED from things that were already there before them, we would not have rocket ships and computers if people simply died and had to re-learn everything everytime someone is born. No we keep information and pass it down generations so people can HAVE THE ANSWERS without having to figure it out own their own.

Its common sense

I cuss alot because I am a happy individual :alcoholic:

Eh... don't mistake my cuss word spam for me being hateful I just talk like this.

*Summary*
Learning shit from videos is 20x faster than learning shit on your own, and the world we live in passes down information so that people do not have to re-learn how to make a rocket ship, or re-learn how the internet was created, and just because you figured something out or practice it does not mean you are getting any better.

I can practice singing all I want, I will NEVER be a singer even after 50 years of training I will never be Beyonce. So practice does not mean shit to some degree.

Thats why I have friends who still do not even know how to use EQ, Reverb, ect and they had been using DAW's 3 years before me and I know way more than them... because I take the quickest most easiest method to obtaining knowledge. That is, you find someone who has the answers, the only time to create your own answers is if you can't find someone who has the answers or that information does not exist.

However, information on Music exist, therefor why would I take the slow ass route when I have youtube and can figure out right now as I am typing this how to EQ to remove bass, instead of just taking 10 days to realize all I had to do was simply move a knob down.......

See the difference 10 days Vs 5 minutes

The shit that would take you 10 days to figure out on your own can easily be known by watching a 5 minute video on youtube.

I will agree sometimes you can watch a youtube video that does not explain shit, but thats why its common sense to click off that video if you realize the person who made the video is doing a bad job at explaining. Apparently some people do not have common sense and continue to watch 40 minute videos even though they know they did not learn a damn thing. Luckily me and others have common sense so we will click off and find another video in less than 20 seconds and get the answer.
 
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Yes. Do not watch videos in the beginning once you have watched enough to understand the inner workings of your DAW.

Once you understand how to navigate and effectively use the DAW, I think we should put down all the books and videos for some time, and just enjoy some liberating experimentation!

You are assuming nobody else will critique the music that is wholly created by someone. You make it sound like a guy who takes my advice has absolutely no contact with the outside world!

It's not like the guy who is taking my advice on board and applying it is going to be out of contact with other humans until he stops his period of experimentation. He can use forums like this to get feedback and critiques on his work. He can take this advice, go back to the drawing board and fix something based on that advice. It will feel like he has conquered something, that he has figured something out all by himself. He will learn much more from this than by looking at how "DOPE BEATZ" did it on YouTube. He will remember this technique FOREVER.

Start with experimentation and trial and error. Once you have totally exhausted this period, then it is time to pick the book/manual back up. At this point it is time to tackle the more difficult concepts within music. They will make more sense and have some practical application in the learner's head. It will be easier to learn. It will come together much quicker as the producer in question has something to relate all of this theory to.
 
Lets pretend I know where everything is on my DAW

I have no clue how to use the EQ

I would have to fail and experiment many more times to learn what I am doing or know what is going on compared to watch a video of someone telling me what is going on and I can open up my DAW and move things around while I know what is going on, instead of me just moving things around and have no clue what the knobs are doing while I am moving things around.

Kind of funny how you said, once you know how to "effectively use the DAW"

Funny how you say that because you then follow it up by saying that is when you should put the videos/books down.....

Really... no crap.... if you are "effectively using your DAW" there is no point of watching videos on something you are already "effective" at.

I see what you did there

Also technically if someone did take your advice they could not have contact with the outside world.

If your advice was "do not have contact with the outside world" and that person took your advice then in fact they would be taking your advice by not having contact with the outside world.

So when you say I act as if people are not going to go against your advice, actually thats the point, if they take your advice then they will be doing what you said, aka listening to what you told them to do.

Lol.... so if you say don't watch videos and they take your advice then they won't watch videos.

Hey you guys can do what you want to do, doesn't effect me any.

If you want to spend 8 hours using the EQ just to finally figure out what boosting the high end does when you could have just easily youtubed it and had the answer in 5 minutes then be my guest!!! Lol

HERE IS WORD FOR WORD WHAT YOU SAID
"After watching a few basic tutorials about how to use and navigate your DAW, you are WASTING YOUR TIME if you continue down the tutorial, research, learn, study path."

Notice you said after learning to navigate, you did not use the words "after you effectively learn to use your DAW"..

That would imply that you already KNOW what you are doing therefor would not NEED videos because you already KNOW what your doing.

You originally said to not watch videos, no books, ect once you learn to "NAVIGATE" the DAW aka any noob can learn to navigate the DAW within a few hours and know where most things are located at. They will still be a noob 6 hours later not knowing jack about the DAW, yet you siad after they learn to "NAVIGATE" the DAW they should drop all the tutorials, research, ect.

Then you try to go back, take those words you said and add in the words "Effectively use your Daw"

no... just no....

Your not getting away that easy, you did not say it like that.

You made it to where you were telling noobs to just basically figure it out without watching videos

But then after I called bull shit you added in "effective" essentially turning those noobs into "Effective Daw users" which in that case, no shit htey woudl not need videos because they would then be "effective daw users".

Lol

Someone LITERALLY could have learned more about their DAW watching a video right now instead of reading this thread

Now I will admit I am not a rocket scientist, however I am pretty positive that its 100x easier to hear someones voice on top of a video tutorial telling you what to do then it is to read any thread or post telling someone how to do something.

I mean, I guess someone could try to understand what a piece of shit looks like by reading the text, but I am also pretty sure its much easier to see with your own eyes what a piece of shit actually looks like.

If a noob tries to do a "trail and error" method they will end up in failure 9/10 times, they will be lucky to even understand wtf they are doing without having some insight on what the knobs, effects, ect do.

Trail and error is something you do when you already have a idea of what your suppose to be doing, trail and error is not having no idea what your doing so your just gonna go in and mess shit up hope you magically figure it out.

It doesn't work like that, you may get lucky and figure out how a compressor works after you mess shit up over 100 times, but thats not how learning is suppose to work nor is it effective. Your suppose to go in having a idea on what a compressor is suppose to do so you already have an idea what to look or listen for even if you don't completely understand what your doing, at least you have a baseline to push you forward. If you have no basic understanding of anything then you are just wasting time playing with shit.

Well you guys can prove me wrong

I would like to know how many people on this website or in general learn from just having no clue what they are doing and pressing buttons until they figure everything out, compared to people who see a plugin, have no idea how it works so they decide to google or youtube it, then after they have a basic understanding they start messing with it to figure it out with a basic idea already in their head.

I doubt the people that learn the fastest are the ones who just mess with stuff until they figure stuff out

I very very very much doubt that, I have alot of friends in real life and about 4 of them use DAWS, some make beats, some make music, some try to mix, and I learned more in 3 years than those people learned in 6 years, and on top of it I know more than them.

The sad part is how out of those 3 years I didn't even spend many days learning, which just proves how much faster I learned from watching videos, I can learn plugins in literally one video, then after I watch the video I open up my Daw and play with it.

You might be thinking "Aha! I got you! You said you opened up the daw and played with the plug in!"

Yes, after I watched a video that explained what the plugin is doing and what I am trying to acheive so then I try to mess with it after I understand its purpose.

The difference is you think its best if noobs just go in with no understanding and start to play with stuff.... yes... thats probably actually the main reason why people never learn is because they waste time and never understand what they are doing, they are too busy playing around with knobs they have no idea are making their songs sound worst and not better.

But everyone has their opinion and I respect that

You think its better to learn that way, and I say bull shit :sing:

PS: When I use the term bull shit its too be funny

I'm not really trying to debate, I am just bored and I know if I write alot of shit someone will reply and I will no longer be bored.
 
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It is hard to debate with someone who knit picks over words like "effective" or "navigate". If you can get to all the various features you need to play with, you are using it effectively, or you are able to navigate it correctly.

It is much the same thing. If you boost the high frequencies in the EQ it is pretty clear what is happening.....I would hope you would not need to go check out a video to figure this out...

This isn't for everyone. My post is quite conceptual in design, not everyone will understand where I'm coming from. Not everyone will understand the point I am trying to make.

This is my exact point, you talk about a "piece of shit" and how you would be better off going out into the world and looking at one to figure out what it is. That is what I am telling beginners to do. Rather than watching countless videos to figure out how to do something a particularly personal way. FIGURE OUT YOUR OWN WAY. It is better for you. It is better for your ear. It is better for your musical growth. It is better for your signature sound.

Rather than copying what has already been done, rather than replicating dudes making tutorials who probably are no better than you or I at production. Go play with your DAW, you will learn much more and understand much more if you figure it out for yourself rather than using a quick-fix method in a ten minute video on YouTube. You are being told what each button does. You are not coming to your own conclusions. There are a million ways to do one thing in a DAW. Not just the way "DOPE BEATZ" shows us how on YouTube.

If you genuinely think the dude who plays with the Compressor 100 times over is not going to have more knowledge than the guy who watches a video on it and then keeps referring back to that video to compress...well then, I can't help you, sir.

You are learning to use a plugin the way someone has shown you how to use it man. This means you will use it the same way as someone out there. Rather than coming to your own conclusions, creating your own sounds, or even putting your own spin on sounds through your VST - you are copying someone else's methods. There is nothing signature or unique about this, at all.

In my initial post I state how it is important to know how things work on a basic level from tutorials. You really are missing the point completely here dude. If you watch a tonne of videos on how to use a particular plugin you are losing a vast amount of self-directed learning which is far more valuable than replicating how some other producer uses it. You need to go with your instinct. You need to go with your ear. You need to not be a copy cat.

Start by experimenting. Finish with knowledge. This is life 101. We start as babies, we are fascinated by all the stiumli we experience. Everything is so shiny, so new, so intriguing. We pick things up to figure out what they are. We observe all around us.

We learn by experience. We learn by experimentation.

I am just asking we apply these simple facts of life to music production too.
 
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zoo said:
. For those of you interested, pick up "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell on Amazon. This book was a revelation. It is a fantastic read and it WILL totally change the way in which you look at what it means to have "skill" in a field.
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Wow, just found this book and the other two that he's written and read a few pages of each to see how they were... Thank you for this! These books are phenomenal even in the beginning pages, I can't wait to read these.
 
You guys got the 10,000 hour rule misunderstood. Did you actually read the book Outliers? You don't need 10,000 hours of practice to learn a new skill. 10,000 hours of practice minimum is what is needed to reach virtuoso status in a skill or craft. John Mayer, Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps, Tiger Woods, Michelle Quan, etc. Read their biographical stories and how many hours a day since they were kids practicing.

I wonder if someone ever asked Barry Bonds how many hours a day he did batting practice since he was a kid. I'm guessing he had over 10, 000 hrs before he even got drafted. Even before the steroids he was the most dominant and feared hitter in baseball. His muscle memory of recognizing if a baseball with a velocity of up to 98 mph is in the strike zone or not in a fraction of a second is the best I've ever seen.

They all have natural talent but their passion that drove them to put that much practice into their craft is what made them virtuosos. I do agree though that the best way to learn is to just do. Watching tutorials all day won't build that muscle memory.
 
highkoo said:
Right.
Aim for mediocrity!
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Actually, most people are mediocre. It is not a bad thing.

It is best to be better than average, but it is better to at least be average. People that get by usually are more fun to hang around. They come in, do what needs to be done, and let the chips fall where they may.

The people chasing the top usually are much more successful, but a lot less fun. Aim for the top, but learn to fit in and be average. Never settle for below average. You will be alright once you realize your limits, improve on things you love, delegate things you hate, and become comfortable with things you like.

This is music after all. Most people just want something remotely entertaining these days. Standards aren't high and you can make money from being average or mediocre. Trust me. I am mediocre and I manage to make money from music.
 
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We are talking about short circuiting the beginner stage of the 10k. Let's say you spend the first 2k learning the basics of production. If we can short circuit this 2k, we shorten the whole process.

That is all!
 
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