Question about composing organic sounding beats

G

GreatBoose

New member
Hi,

I have been making sample based beats and sometimes struggle with creating variety to my beats. hooks, bridges etc.
I was thinking to start learning compose my own beats using sound libraries like kontakt or sample tank.
How close can you get to that real organic type sound using modern vst´s? Or do they all sound more or less plastic? I know that its also a matter of mixing, layering and creating good melodies but is it worth a shot if your looking for that kind of sound or should i just stick with sampling? I have been watching some of the youtube clips but maybe if you can post some tracks that are made with for example using kontakt libraries?

Thanks
 
If you're talking about creating instruments like Hi-hats, Snares, Claps, and all that other Jazz, you are going to have a medium to hard time re-creating these instruments in VSTi's as these instruments have extremely dynamic frequency values, and re-creating them requires a lot of delicate EQing, filtering, and modulating. You're definitely better off using instrument racks to create your own loops.

In regards to melodies, you will have a somewhat easier time. Most modern VSTi's provide you with the tools to re-create patches that can be extremely similar to stringed/ flute type instruments. But again, real life instruments sound the way they do because of their dynamic properties (built into the instrument/ how the instruments are actually played), so re-creating these instruments in VSTi's isn't as easy as 1,2,3.. So in my opinion you'd be better off using the samples, or teaming up with others to help make the samples you're looking for? Or even learning how to play that particular instrument. I go to VSTi's as I love the synthetic sound that can resemble real life instruments.. which makes it fit perfectly into the electronic genre!

Hope this helps
 
KonKossKang said:
whether you using a mouse or drum pads the quantize should be either 1/16, 1/32, 1/64 or off completely.
Click to expand...

I don't think his issue is quantization. If he's using something like the MPC then he probably won't be looking to play out his whole beat manually. He'd probably look to record a 4 or 8 bar loop and call it a day (in the most part). He's saying that he's struggling to create a notable variation in structure. His hook is sounding the same as his verse.

Unless you're a trained musician (or willing to learn over the next year AND MORE) I'd just stick to sampling. You need an ear to re-create samples which, unless you naturally have it, will take you a while to discover as you train and hone your musical skills (i.e. playing piano). I have two sample-based producers on my label, and a lot of people we have worked with and critiqued us have criticised the lack of variation within our beats. The two of us prefer a straight loop (for the most part) while Elan sometimes likes to layer samples.

However, another producer uses synths and he seems to play his beats (each instrument at a time) for the whole track. This allows him to improvise, or plan a change up for say, the hook. Though, he does try and keep the variation minimal. He has stated in conversations before he wants to keep the Hip Hop blueprint prevalent in his records, despite all of his experimentation in styles and techniques.

If you're making beats and are looking to put them out as just an instrumental (unless as a beat tape to shop to emcees) then you probably will want to create more variation. If you're trying to get an emcee on them eventually, then post-production techniques will allow you to develop more variation throughout the structure of the tracks. A good example is the track Dynamite by the Roots (produced by none other than J Dilla).



As you can tell, the beat is pretty much an 8 bar guitar loop. However, the Roots add variation and definition to the structure by changing the style of ad libs and other techniques. For the intro, there's a vocal. A heavy breathing vocal < for lack of a better name for it. You can also here it in other places throughout the song. On the other hand, the hook possesses two layered takes of the hook, with other effects like delay.

These sorts of things can be added (with the style of the emcee in mind) after you've made the beat, and during and after the recording sessions.

The most important thing for you to do, if you do choose to continue sampling, is to listen and analyse the producers you wish to sound like and emulate their techniques, but change it up. No one wants a twin of a legend. Be you.

Also, to add another aspect to the conversation. The Roots album that Dynamite is off had very little variation throughout the record. Considering, for the most part, the band played for most of the tracks you'd probably expect more variation in a genre like Rock. Naturally, you wouldn't expect as much variation in Hip Hop.
 
as a person who only started messing with a midi keyboard and mpd combos this year i'd like to point out how much easier it is for me to do tiny little melodies with a piano than sample.as for recreating a sample it depends on what the sound is.recreating kanye's guilt trip synth you'd need to arpeggiate a filtered triangle wave with a tiny bit of detune with 10% reverb.For some reason a square wave didnt work for me i still dunno why :/

Variation well, that is opinion.Some tracks need it, some don't.and for imitating a legend, that was my goal at one point when i was new.Always did have a thing for wantin to be as good as saki yagmha and kv anime.Still do though, but not in a battler's way like it once was :/(although i wouldnt mind battling either of those 3, especially yagmha, at that point losing wouldnt even matter.)
 
Second everything that's been mentioned - but I'd like to add a few things.

1) Just because it's a sample or even a synthesized sound, doesn't mean it can't sound "organic." I believe much of modern sound design and production is all about simplicity and expression. Simple sounds achieving an almost human purpose. Even years ago we were achieving this - just look at Daft Punk or Justice or countless other 80's bands... and this was way back before we were as polished as we are now! Synthesized sounds but with an "organic" feel.

2) I believe the real key here is 4 things:

A) Excellent sample selection. Picking the RIGHT samples is literally everything. You will train your ear and get better at this. (This also includes layering samples together to create your own, unique sounds. Simple example: 2 snares layered with a clap.)

B) VELOCITY EDITING AND LENGTH EDITING. Seriously, the smallest changes in velocity per note make the largest impact. Imagine if that sound was being actually played by someone live, no matter what the sound actually is. What articulations is the player "feeling" on each note? How long is each hit? Is it a more aggressive hit, or a more muted hit, and how does it interact with the sounds around it? This is especially great for making "organic" breakbeat kick drums or hi-hats, shakers, etc.

C) LESS IS MORE. I can't stress this enough. If things aren't sounding right, or something just isn't grooving correctly, or really you just can't pinpoint why it doesn't sound right... try taking things OUT instead of putting more things in. Chances are something you created just isn't fitting correctly. Most music sounds great because almost any listener can absorb each element almost subconsciously. If there is too much, this because more difficult. Allow space to breath, room for groove, etc. Obviously, some genres are much more intense and have less "space/room," but if you listen you'll notice that the kingpins of even these genres have simplicity down pat.

And little extra tip here: just don't be lazy. Really. Spend the time on every single individual element until it sounds amazing just on it's own. If it doesn't, you may want to consider spending more time on.

All that being said, this is really just the tip of the iceberg. Proper EQing and compression with the right reverb can seriously change everything as well... BUT if you don't at least have these basics down, you'll be "polishing a turd" instead of making gold.

Hope this helps! Feel free to PM me if you'd like to talk more. :)
 
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Thank you all for your input. Much appreciated! Like Mc exclusivo pointed out quantization is really not a problem neither are drums. Its more in the melody part that i struggle with. When i find a dope sample, chop it up and spend x amount of time to figure out which chops sound good together and when i finally get something down for the verse part then there is a that ****ing hook part coming up and another headache :rolleyes: so i was thinking with composing your own you have more freedom compared to sampling but maybe i just need to develop my chopping techniques. With sampling its easier to get more variation if you chop small but i dont like that overly chopped sound. One of my biggest inspirations is thes one from people under the stairs. I know he uses a lot of straight loops and drum breaks. Maybe i am overthinking this and should settle for good verse part and make little adjustments for a hook and let the rappers handle the hook. That being said lets turn this another way around. If i wanna keep that good old sample beat vibe and bring a vst-synth to spice up things. Nothing crazy just little things to add, do you guys have any recommendations? I read from somewhere that when you`re combining synths and samples you should take in consideration when the music that youre sampling was being made so that sounds mach better. i mostly sample 70s stuff so maybe some virtual analog emulation vst is the best bet?
 
Ah so you're talking about actually sampling entire parts of songs rather than just taking drum/sound samples individually and composing with them.

That's more tricky ground - I personally never do that simply because of the commercial legal issues that can happen. But tons of people don't care, and it's a great sound so if that's your style, then go for it. Just be aware of the limitations.

It's definitely much more difficult to make new melodies over top of fully sampled instrumentation. Obviously it depends on how minimal your sample is though.

I'd look to see what parts are already being played in your sample. Is there no bass part? No drums? No lead? No chords? Fill in the missing gaps with sounds that, as you said, sound familiar and like they belong... (or perhaps they explicitly sound like they DON'T belong... but you'd have to do it while getting the point across that you did it tastefully and purposefully and not just because you didn't know what you were doing.)

Creating a drum groove to go with the sample is almost always the simplest and most appealing route.

Last thought - really embrace that less is more approach if you really want to add more instrumentation. A hit here or there. But I think you were already mentioning that that's what you were interested in.

The hardest part here in this case will be just crafting the sound to sit in the same environment. The original sample had it's own reverb, EQs, compression, sound design/instrumentation, etc. You'd have to try to emulate all of these things to make it sound like it's "part of the piece" and not just standing on top of it. It's really quite tricky.

Am I understanding you correctly?
 
Yes you did. In our case the legal issues wont be a problem. We are just couple of guys trying to relive the golden era through our own music mainly making it for ourselves :cool: but i understand what youre saying for example if i got 2 bar piano loop i might add my own strings, drums, bass to it and it might work but if i have a sample with lots of different elements to it my best bet would be to make variation by changing drum patterns, bassline maybe some filter automation to drop the sample in and out..
 
Well Thes One layers a lot of his samples. His drums are a variation of breaks. He tends to layer a number of kick drums, then picks out a snare (usually accompanied by percussion from a break beat) to accompany the kicks. The samples themselves tend to be a main sample loop (tends to be used as the baseline), while throughout his beats you hear other sections of the sampled song in the background, usually with mellowing effects.

If you wanted to go down the sample route with synths on top then you'd have to make sure the synths accompany the overall sound of the beat. TheGroundAbove mentions it. I think the bit where you mention about "synths from the same period as the sample" is true. You don't want to hear some drum n bass thud on top of Barry White. Or maybe you do. Maybe it'll go perfect together. I haven't tried it.

To mention them again... My two label mates, Elan and BA have been collaborating recently and experimenting. Both are from different sorts of styles yet what they've come up with is very interesting and good. Elan being mainly in charge of the sample and drums while BA in charge of synths and the mix. As a casual listener, when I hear the synths, I don't really take much notice of them. They sit in the mix perfectly. So there's no reason why you can't do it yourself.

After hearing Elans original beat and the samples themselves, you are quick to notice the work that they've done with the mix. They've completed about 8 beats so far, and all of them have had the same sort of feel. All of them having synths added to samples, while still in keeping with the sound they've been aiming for. This gritty, yet jazzy fusion, which sounds pretty modern. I would say "Here's a link", but I can't see us at the label releasing their work for quite some time. Feel free to sign up to the mailing list though, there'll definitely be an e-mail that goes out when their collab does drop.

EDIT: Just to add, I think you mentioned earlier about re-creating the sample with all synths. Like I originally said, unless you're a trained musician you will really struggle. However, since you guys mentioned legal complications. You know if you do re-create the sample. You only have to pay for one clearance of rights and not the rights for the recording. Less money to cough up!
 
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