Preset Recall in Analog Synthesizers: How it (doesn't) affect the interface

[Libertine Lush]

I've yet to try an analog synthesizer, so this question is born from that ignorance. Despite having watched a considerable amount of video demos of them, there is one thing in particular that I can't quite ascertain: when you recall a patch, say one you've made yourself, the physical controls of the interface do not adjust to reflect the new sound loaded. Does the process of figuring out what the parameters are for the newly loaded preset mean you must fiddle with every parameter, and as it morphs the sound away from the preset sound, you adjust it until the preset sound is intact. And you do that for every parameter.

Is that how it works? Having not worked with an analog synth yet, it's very much an abstraction for me.

Thanks for any insight.

 

[rhythmgj]

Hmm. I'm not sure what videos you've watched referencing what gear, or which analog synthesizers you may have seen or heard. But true analog synthesizers (analog circuitry and hands-on controls; some younger musicians are calling anything in a standalone unit "analog," but not necessarily accurate) do not have any presets or any recall functions. That was the thing back in the day with synths and with mixing boards that didn't have recall or motorized faders-- you had to take accurate notes, and you had to re-set settings every time you started a new session (but wanted to use a certain sound or recall a certain mix).

There are ways to facilitate this, but it's important to remember that the "save" feature is in your head and on your paper, because you won't find it anywhere on your unit (if it's a real analog box). We used to make graphics of various gear, and write down "presets" or mix info (knob positions, etc.) on a new page for every different session. Some synths came with (or now come with) physical templates-- paper or cardstock patterns that you can overlay on the unit's face and make marks to remember settings. My Synthetone Jen SX1000 (an old Italian Moog knock-off) came with a stack of these templates (I still have some unused ones), and if you have a Korg Monotribe, you can download a pdf of their version of a synth template.

Is that what you're asking about?

GJ

 

[krushing]

It depends. Some analogs have (endless) encoders rather than potentiometers for the controls - so they'll automagically reflect the right positions (or rather they don't reflect any specific position, usually). My only preset-capable analog with pots is currently the Moog Sub37, and it has three modes that affect how the knobs respond to changing presets/not being in the right position: an absolute mode, in which the adjusted parameter jumps to the physical position of the knob as soon as you change it; a "pass through" mode in which the parameter only changes when you pass the point where the value is at in the preset and finally a "relative mode" in which it scales the parameter change in relation to the preset's value and the knob's physical position. I'd imagine other synths do similar things (I know that the Prophet '08 has these same modes, for example).

/edit: just saw rhythmgj's answer - and frankly, I think it's a bit wrong - there are plenty of true analogs with presets.

 

[Libertine Lush]

I'm not sure what videos you've watched referencing what gear, or which analog synthesizers you may have seen or heard

A lot of the modern Moogs, the Elektrons, some of the Dave Smith Instruments, etc

Is that what you're asking about?

Yes, that's precisely it!

It depends. Some analogs have (endless) encoders rather than potentiometers for the controls - so they'll automagically reflect the right positions (or rather they don't reflect any specific position, usually).

Ah! I've come across the term "endless encoders" a handful of times since my newfound interest in synthesizers (and electronic instruments in general), and I suppose this could be its main reason for being.

Could you mention what some of those analogs with endless encoders are? I'd be very interested to look into them. Also, I'm trying to look into analog synths with digital controls (not sure if I'm using the right terminology), which would aid in more convenient preset recall, like the Modal 001 and Parva synths. I've also read that there are some that utilize LEDs around the knobs to show where the new preset position actually is. If you know of any such synths, could you name them?

My only preset-capable analog with pots is currently the Moog Sub37, and it has three modes that affect how the knobs respond to changing presets/not being in the right position: an absolute mode, in which the adjusted parameter jumps to the physical position of the knob as soon as you change it...

I am so happy and elated that you mention the Sub 37, as that is the very synth that I'm intent on getting, but when this uncertainty over preset interaction arose, it gave me pause. Being new to synthesizers, I started to think I should consider a synth with a more accommodating learning curve, but after your mention of those 3 modes, I think I'll be fine.

The only mode I don't understand is the first: Absolute. Let's say a new preset has been loaded. The "Attack" knob was already fully turned to the left (for clarity in this example, I'll call it 9, as in a watchface), but in this preset it is actually around the center position (12). Does Absolute mode mean that when you start turning the knob, even if you move it barely to the right (to 10), this new position (10) will be considered the center position the preset is actually at (12)? If that is the case, what if you wish to move 90 degrees left relative to the preset's center position (12)? Since you were at the far left (9) before loading the preset, and now you're at the 10 position, how would you move 90 degrees left since it's not an endless encoder?

Also, thanks to your mode mention, I was able to keyword search those exact modes in the Sub 37 manual, and it mentions:

"Relative and pass through modes are recommended for live performance, while absolute mode is recommended for creating new sounds."

Do you agree with that? And, what do you think would be the best mode for a beginner when recording? In my imagination, Pass Through seems fairly accessible.

Thank you both very much!

 

[krushing]

Ah! I've come across the term "endless encoders" a handful of times since my newfound interest in synthesizers (and electronic instruments in general), and I suppose this could be its main reason for being.

Could you mention what some of those analogs with endless encoders are? I'd be very interested to look into them. Also, I'm trying to look into analog synths with digital controls (not sure if I'm using the right terminology), which would aid in more convenient preset recall, like the Modal 001 and Parva synths. I've also read that there are some that utilize LEDs around the knobs to show where the new preset position actually is. If you know of any such synths, could you name them?

The Elektron boxes are like that (both the analog & digital ones are all roughly similar UI-wise), for example - they have to be, with that design, since all the knobs are multi-purpose. The aforementioned Prophet 08 first appeared as an encoder-only edition - they only later made the model that features potentiometers on most controls. DSI's tabletop models, Mopho & Tetra, both have very limited, encoder-driven interfaces...and the Modal synths use encoders as well, afaik. Not trying to make a comprehensive list here, but those are some examples. As for those LED rings, Moog's Little Phatty is a good example. I have the Nord Lead 3, which also has those - it's not analog, but theoretically it could be...

The only mode I don't understand is the first: Absolute. Let's say a new preset has been loaded. The "Attack" knob was already fully turned to the left (for clarity in this example, I'll call it 9, as in a watchface), but in this preset it is actually around the center position (12). Does Absolute mode mean that when you start turning the knob, even if you move it barely to the right (to 10), this new position (10) will be considered the center position the preset is actually at (12)? If that is the case, what if you wish to move 90 degrees left relative to the preset's center position (12)? Since you were at the far left (9) before loading the preset, and now you're at the 10 position, how would you move 90 degrees left since it's not an endless encoder?

No, the absolute mode is exactly what it sounds like - it'll completely disregard whatever the preset's value was and simply jump to the value of the knob's position. There's nothing relative in it - it's in fact the most simple mode

Also, thanks to your mode mention, I was able to keyword search those exact modes in the Sub 37 manual, and it mentions:

"Relative and pass through modes are recommended for live performance, while absolute mode is recommended for creating new sounds."

Do you agree with that? And, what do you think would be the best mode for a beginner when recording? In my imagination, Pass Through seems fairly accessible.

Well yeah, relative & pass through are good for live since they won't jump abruptly to a completely different value ever. They might also be useful when you just want to slightly tweak an existing preset. But absolute is, ahem, absolutely the most useful for sound creation since you obviously want to know where your knobs are at - I haven't actually ever even switched away from absolute.

The Sub37 is surprisingly complex and can be somewhat confusing as a first synth - but I do think it's well possible to use it in a simple way.

 

[Libertine Lush]

The Elektron boxes are like that (both the analog & digital ones are all roughly similar UI-wise), for example - they have to be, with that design, since all the knobs are multi-purpose. ...and the Modal synths use encoders as well, afaik.

Thanks for listing some. That's very helpful.

I love the compact footprint of the Analog Four, and I'm now certainly going to look into it once again, in light of my newfound consideration over preset usage. Though a consistent criticism about Elektrons is their unintuitive UI and deep menu diving, so that could counter the convenience of its digital controls for me.

The Modals also have that superb screen and UI. I love that it can display the waveform as it is being modulated by parameter changes. I find that especially useful and educational as a synth beginner. The Modal 001 is the main rival against the Sub 37 for me. There's hardly any meaningful sound demos of it so far, so I'll have to wait till it's released, but they say it uses the same sound architecture as the 002.

And ultimately there's the issue of sound preference. I love that creamy, rich Moog sound, but I'm also under no illusion it is exclusive to Moog. I just need to figure out if the Modal 001 and Analog Four can also create a similar realm of sounds, along with all the other things they can do that the Moogs simply can't.

]No, the absolute mode is exactly what it sounds like - it'll completely disregard whatever the preset's value was and simply jump to the value of the knob's position. There's nothing relative in it - it's in fact the most simple mode.

Ohhh! I got it now. It is the simplest. I spent so much effort writing out my watch-face example to try to make it comprehensible too...

Now that I understand how preset recall works in analog synths when they don't have digital controls or LEDs, it does seem like if you wish to figure out the parameters of a newly loaded preset, you would need to move every knob a bit to find out where it's actually at?

Thank you!

 

[krushing]

I love the compact footprint of the Analog Four, and I'm now certainly going to look into it once again, in light of my newfound consideration over preset usage. Though a consistent criticism about Elektrons is their unintuitive UI and deep menu diving, so that could counter the convenience of its digital controls for me.

Well...I think the Elektron workflow is pretty great once you learn it. Yes, they're "unintuitive" in the sense that they've built a workflow that suits their machines - and you'll have to learn it. But once you do, it's highly usable. I only have the Analog Rytm at the moment though - but I know the others are somewhat similar to use. There's a strong emphasis on the sequencing side of things, so I don't think the A4 is directly comparable to, say, the Sub37 in terms of ease of sound design.

Now that I understand how preset recall works in analog synths when they don't have digital controls or LEDs, it does seem like if you wish to figure out the parameters of a newly loaded preset, you would need to move every knob a bit to find out where it's actually at?

Yeah, you'd probably want to use the pass through knob mode for this.

 

[Libertine Lush]

Yeah, you'd probably want to use the pass through knob mode for this.

Good to know. I was imagining it would best for that purpose too. Thanks.

 

[rhythmgj]

What I meant by "true analog" would exclude a synth with digital controls. But I did forget about the newer models Krushing mentioned, so I'm glad you two connected for the info you needed. My analog gear is either vintage, or of the smaller/portable variety that all use traditional pots rather than endless rotating knobs.

GJ

 

[Libertine Lush]

I just happened across a mention of Sysex messages today, and so did some brief reading about it.

Since you can transfer an analog synth's presets to a computer for backup with Sysex, is it possible to also view the parameters of the presets in a program on the computer? The significance of that I imagine is that then you wouldn't have to go through every single knob to find its parameter in a preset.

Just learning of this now, I can't tell if this is an ability available by default for all analog synths or only if the manufacturer makes an accompanying app for their synth. Seems to be the latter case, as I just saw a new thread in the Moog forum today, where someone mentioned that "we all hope to have the Sub37 editor sometimes during the summer; it should come with a nice sub37 panel lookalike, helping us to understand how the presets are made."

Can MIDI dumping be utilized in the way I'm imagining and is preset parameter viewing only available with a synth-specific app?

Thank you again for any insight.

(I'm buying the Sub 37 tomorrow!)

 

[bandcoach]

I, too, confess to not wanting to confabulate true analogue synths - an analogue synth, in the main, does not have a midi interface built into it, thus obviating the need for sysex editors and the like

The only way that a sysex editor can control a synth is if the parameters can be fed as "data" to the VCO/VCF/VCA/LFO/ADSR/etc - this almost always will be in the form of discrete digital data (0's and 1's) rather than continuous values as we should expect of a true analogue synth

With that said, using a sysex editor would be the way forward for maintaining and using a library of presets/patches for any synth that can be accessed via sysex messages. it was what we did way back when in the mid 80's once computers became involved in the creation and management of MIDI data recording sessions. Sequencers like Pro24 and C-Lab-Notator allowed you to record your sysex messages directly into your sessions or you could use custom or off-the-shelf sysex editors. Each synth module required it's own sysex editor/librarian if you wanted to visualise the settings and how they created the sounds you were using

 

[Libertine Lush]

Each synth module required it's own sysex editor/librarian if you wanted to visualise the settings and how they created the sounds you were using

So that means, for example, Moog would need to make an editor specifically for the Sub 37 for presets to be viewable and editable?; I cannot do so through a generic sysex editor, like Sysex Librarian?

And, presumably, this process requires dumping the data on the computer, then subsequently viewing it, and not actually being able to view and edit in real time as you're tweaking the knobs on the synth?

Thank you.

 

[bandcoach]

the sysex editor could be made by moog or by a 3rd party (which was quite common in the 80's)

 

[krushing]

The Yamaha CS-80 & Roland Jupiter 8 both have the (non-MIDI) capability to store patches. Not true analog enough?

 

[bandcoach]

actually not - they are using ram which makes the parameters digital (discrete) rather than continuous

 

[krushing]

Yeah, I understand what you mean (even though I'm not sure the CS-80 uses RAM). I've never really heard this kind of "true analog" definition though...