Melodies in beats
- Thread starter tjustice
- Start date
Wallengard
Manipulator of energy
I kind of always found these kind of questions a bit funky..
Aren't you supposed to be the one with the idea of what you want to do? I don't understand what kind of answer you are expecting..
Aren't you supposed to be the one with the idea of what you want to do? I don't understand what kind of answer you are expecting..
Pumpthrust
New member
This is one of those questions that comes up every couple weeks, and the answer is always (and will always be) the same.
Do a search, man. This has been answered many times.
https://www.futureproducers.com/forums/production-techniques/getting-started/melodies-499276/
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UncleDutch
Record. Mix. Repeat.
This has been asked a million times, but I will answer it for you anyway.
If you are unfamiliar with fundamental music theory, the best way to get a "good" melody is to listen to any song ever released commercially in history of mankind and copy the melody exactly. This is called a "replay" in the music industry. It may sound like cheating or stealing (and it is if you get paid for the beat), but big time producers do it all the time. In fact, both Dr. Dre and Timbaland have been sued for it. But don't worry about this. A simple composition license (the buyer takes care of this, not you) avoids any litigation.
Another option is to copy a melody then change the rhythm, adds notes, omit notes or change the key entirely. This can be super fun. You will be surprised how you can morph an already popular melody into something totally new.
Keep in mind, there is a reason you here a ton or commercial remakes and remixes from major label artists. It is because we already know that these melodies "work". IMO, if music theory is confusing to you, don't try to reinvent the wheel. Of course, you could just bang on keys until something decent comes out, but it sounds like you may have already tried that. Music production should be fun, not frustrating. Try it out and let me know how it goes. Hope this helps.
If you are unfamiliar with fundamental music theory, the best way to get a "good" melody is to listen to any song ever released commercially in history of mankind and copy the melody exactly. This is called a "replay" in the music industry. It may sound like cheating or stealing (and it is if you get paid for the beat), but big time producers do it all the time. In fact, both Dr. Dre and Timbaland have been sued for it. But don't worry about this. A simple composition license (the buyer takes care of this, not you) avoids any litigation.
Another option is to copy a melody then change the rhythm, adds notes, omit notes or change the key entirely. This can be super fun. You will be surprised how you can morph an already popular melody into something totally new.
Keep in mind, there is a reason you here a ton or commercial remakes and remixes from major label artists. It is because we already know that these melodies "work". IMO, if music theory is confusing to you, don't try to reinvent the wheel. Of course, you could just bang on keys until something decent comes out, but it sounds like you may have already tried that. Music production should be fun, not frustrating. Try it out and let me know how it goes. Hope this helps.
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rhythmgj
Character in Spades...
>>>>A simple composition license (the buyer takes care of this, not you) avoids any litigation.<<<<
Careful, let's not confuse anybody. Doing a cover song, and borrowing elements (like melody) from one piece of music for another piece (your own composition) are two entirely different things.
GJ
Careful, let's not confuse anybody. Doing a cover song, and borrowing elements (like melody) from one piece of music for another piece (your own composition) are two entirely different things.
GJ
UncleDutch
Record. Mix. Repeat.
Sounds like you may know about this than I do. Are you on the "inside"? Have I misunderstood the definition of "replay" (srs). Would you not need a license to do what I describe above?
bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
Copyright is muddy at the best of times
Stealing a melody from one track to use for another is a breach of copyright especially if the original creator can show how the copied version has no real dissimilarities (they would use a professional musicologist or transcriber to show this)
Many so-called rules of thumb actually do not exist anywhere in the law or the case law - i.e. there no precedents other than findings against certain individuals
The so-called 12-note rule (i.e you can use the first 12 notes of a melody) has rarely survived a challenge via the courts
George Harrison in My Sweet Lord vs He So Fine unwittingly copied most of the melodic ideas in the latter and lost a lot of money as a result
There is no such thing as a composition license, btw, there are, however, licenses to do cover versions which may be note for note or more creative in their rendering of the essential features of the song (lyrics and melody are all that can be copyrighted)
A chord progression cannot be copyrighted no matter how unique it may seem. Nor can an arranging style (despite the recent Gaye vs Thicke/Pharrel finding - appeals are no doubt in train as we speak including amicus briefs from concerned parties as it would render the entirety of what we do as producers moot leading to atonality at its worst in the effort to avoid conflicts with previously recorded materials)
Stealing a melody from one track to use for another is a breach of copyright especially if the original creator can show how the copied version has no real dissimilarities (they would use a professional musicologist or transcriber to show this)
Many so-called rules of thumb actually do not exist anywhere in the law or the case law - i.e. there no precedents other than findings against certain individuals
The so-called 12-note rule (i.e you can use the first 12 notes of a melody) has rarely survived a challenge via the courts
George Harrison in My Sweet Lord vs He So Fine unwittingly copied most of the melodic ideas in the latter and lost a lot of money as a result
There is no such thing as a composition license, btw, there are, however, licenses to do cover versions which may be note for note or more creative in their rendering of the essential features of the song (lyrics and melody are all that can be copyrighted)
A chord progression cannot be copyrighted no matter how unique it may seem. Nor can an arranging style (despite the recent Gaye vs Thicke/Pharrel finding - appeals are no doubt in train as we speak including amicus briefs from concerned parties as it would render the entirety of what we do as producers moot leading to atonality at its worst in the effort to avoid conflicts with previously recorded materials)
UncleDutch
Record. Mix. Repeat.
So I was was correct with my first post (minus the "composition" license term) that you need a license to CYA when doing what I described. Just so you know, I got some of my information from this article MusicRadar - Replay (see paragraph 3).
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bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
GJ could say more about the actual name of the licence, but a replay licence may be a specific instance replay (i.e. a maximum time) as opposed to a full cover version, which is when someone/a band creates a new recorded version - this was the mainstay of popular music in the 1930's and 1940's with many different artists all recording the same songs in the same year with their own personal stylings attached
and it s not necessarily obtained from a Mechanical reproduction licensing outfit but a Publishing licensing group like BMI/ASCAP/SOCAN/APRA/AMCOS/etc
and it s not necessarily obtained from a Mechanical reproduction licensing outfit but a Publishing licensing group like BMI/ASCAP/SOCAN/APRA/AMCOS/etc
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UncleDutch
Record. Mix. Repeat.
bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
and that will only work if the buyer can actually obtain the license
remember that this is business we are talking about not some artistic please let me copy plea heard in a studio
if the buyer cannot obtain the license then what happens
- do you pay back the money already fronted to you (that is what is expected in business if teh product delivered fails to meet expectations)?
- Do you offer to give them another beat this time without any samples? - they might go for that but being burnt once they may be shy of doing further business with you
- in some jurisdictions such action (selling something without a license/permission/authorisation to do so for some of the materials contained within it) constitutes fraud or deception, is this the type of business practice you want to be known to use?
remember that this is business we are talking about not some artistic please let me copy plea heard in a studio
if the buyer cannot obtain the license then what happens
- do you pay back the money already fronted to you (that is what is expected in business if teh product delivered fails to meet expectations)?
- Do you offer to give them another beat this time without any samples? - they might go for that but being burnt once they may be shy of doing further business with you
- in some jurisdictions such action (selling something without a license/permission/authorisation to do so for some of the materials contained within it) constitutes fraud or deception, is this the type of business practice you want to be known to use?
UncleDutch
Record. Mix. Repeat.
Not sure what you were trying to say there. Looks like some words got left out.
I'm sure the label would make sure they can obtain a license before paying you for the beat. The way I understand it, if they do end up using the beat they will give you an advance. The advance will be a one-time fee for the beat and they are not going to ask for the money back if the artist does not sell.
You should always disclose to the buyer, major label or not, if you "replayed" a melody. The buyer should never feel burnt if you tell them up front and they know the implications of using the beat.
Again, in a major label type situation, I'm sure the label would make sure they can obtain a license before paying you for the beat. Otherwise lets be realistic. If I make beats using this technique to get my melodies, I certainly am not going to hire a lawyer to obtain licenses to all my beats before I sell them to unsigned and independents. I will tell them how I got my melodies, but beyond that it is up to them to decide if they should get a license or not.
For the OP, again you could avoid all this by just changing a few things. Don't let all this legal talk (non-professional) discourage you from using this method. Everyone (including some if not all of the biggest names ever in the history of the music industry) have done this. Everything is a remix of everything.
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bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
there were no words left out: look up the meaning for each one used and then piece it together
seriously the guy didn't even ask about lifting material from other songs, you suggested it as a method to begin with; the rest of the discussion has been about trying to educate you as to the correct language and interpretation of copyright/mechanical rights/etc.... (smh, I'm an Old Guy )
as for advances vs payments two different things
- an advance is against sales and in this day and age is more likely to be pursued to recoup any losses; in fact you will find that a label may take all or part of your publishing on that track as a means of recovering their money in the long haul
- the majors and minors and independents are not making money from sales but from the cut of every other aspect of an artists income stream
- they are hardly likely to throw money at you (an advance) for the same reasons
seriously the guy didn't even ask about lifting material from other songs, you suggested it as a method to begin with; the rest of the discussion has been about trying to educate you as to the correct language and interpretation of copyright/mechanical rights/etc.... (smh, I'm an Old Guy )
as for advances vs payments two different things
- an advance is against sales and in this day and age is more likely to be pursued to recoup any losses; in fact you will find that a label may take all or part of your publishing on that track as a means of recovering their money in the long haul
- the majors and minors and independents are not making money from sales but from the cut of every other aspect of an artists income stream
- they are hardly likely to throw money at you (an advance) for the same reasons
rhythmgj
Character in Spades...
>>>>Just for the OP sake (and mine) I think we can we expect the beat buyer to obtain the license.<<<<
IF you state that in your contract from the get-go and make sure that you are indemnified from any infringement issues; and of course nothing is a guarantee-- when there is a lawsuit, then there is usually an effort to "grape-shot" a net to sue anyone and everyone involved, and see what sticks...
I'll have to read the article to know what they are talking about, U.D. In general, it's best to avoid copyright infringement at all costs.
In the US (with similar laws in place in the UK, Australia, and Europe), copyright can be filed for a "song" (piece of music, whether it has lyrics or not), and only the melody, and any lyrics, will be covered, as BC said. For that, you file Form PA with the Library of Congress. For a "sound recording" (as BC said, you can't really copyright chords or an arrangement style on its own), which would cover the actual sounds embodied in that particular recorded version, you file Form SR (and afaik, Form SR can be used to cover both song and recording in a pinch, if the owner of both is one and the same, i.e., the scenario isn't a songwriter, artist, and record label that are all three different entities).
BTW, any intellectual property that you create is automatically protected by "copyright," the concept that you own your own creations (in absence of any other outstanding agreement, at least for some certain set amount of time)-- all you have to do is make a physical copy somehow (file on USB, CD, cassette tape, LP, 45, hard-drive, DVD, Blu-Ray, etc., etc.) and affix the (c) symbol and the year of creation. But because of the murkiness BC mentioned, and the international nature of releasing songs in today's world market, it is always best practice to ensure that your copyright is on-file with an established claim verification agency-- in the US it is the Library of Congress. This makes it a lot easier for you to prove infringement if a case ever has to go to court.
Also, it's confusing, I know, but once a song has been recorded and released to the public in some form (an official release, not a burned CD copy lent to a friend), anyone can do a cover version of the song, provided they obtain a license. Under US Copyright law, a license is compulsory, i.e., as long as someone files in good faith with an agency like Harry Fox or Limelight and pays a set fee, they can cover and release that song (again, after a first release by the original owner and/or licensee as in the record label). So I can do a whole double album of Rolling Stones covers, if I have paid for the privilege.
This right is completely separate from borrowing melody for a new composition, adding/re-arranging an existing piece (called a "derivative work"), sampling (a complete and whole 'nuther ball game), doing a re-mix, licensing for film, television, or musical theater use ("Grand Rights"), digital release rights, or any of those other related, but different side issues (all covered under different portions of US law and various international laws and agreements).
Copyright is huge business, which is why it is an area that many attorneys specialize in-- there is a lot of $$$$ involved.
So no, it's not a simple thing, and I would rather write something original than go around borrowing melodies from others ad hoc/unadvisedly...
GJ
Disclaimer-- NOT an attorney or barrister, so seek legal counsel. There are a number of sources in print and on-line that can help you get a better grip (and a more accurate one) on the basics of copyright law. I would start with the incredible primer by Donald Passman ("Everything You Always Wanted to Know about the Music Business..."), which gets into quite a bit of the nitty gritty of song copyright and dealing with labels. It helped me out a lot as a songwriter, recording artist, and having my own label (sometimes licensing songs or previous recordings for compilations, sometimes releasing original work). You can also find out a lot by checking-out the ASCAP and BMI websites, the Harry Fox website, and the Library of Congress copyright section.
IF you state that in your contract from the get-go and make sure that you are indemnified from any infringement issues; and of course nothing is a guarantee-- when there is a lawsuit, then there is usually an effort to "grape-shot" a net to sue anyone and everyone involved, and see what sticks...
I'll have to read the article to know what they are talking about, U.D. In general, it's best to avoid copyright infringement at all costs.
In the US (with similar laws in place in the UK, Australia, and Europe), copyright can be filed for a "song" (piece of music, whether it has lyrics or not), and only the melody, and any lyrics, will be covered, as BC said. For that, you file Form PA with the Library of Congress. For a "sound recording" (as BC said, you can't really copyright chords or an arrangement style on its own), which would cover the actual sounds embodied in that particular recorded version, you file Form SR (and afaik, Form SR can be used to cover both song and recording in a pinch, if the owner of both is one and the same, i.e., the scenario isn't a songwriter, artist, and record label that are all three different entities).
BTW, any intellectual property that you create is automatically protected by "copyright," the concept that you own your own creations (in absence of any other outstanding agreement, at least for some certain set amount of time)-- all you have to do is make a physical copy somehow (file on USB, CD, cassette tape, LP, 45, hard-drive, DVD, Blu-Ray, etc., etc.) and affix the (c) symbol and the year of creation. But because of the murkiness BC mentioned, and the international nature of releasing songs in today's world market, it is always best practice to ensure that your copyright is on-file with an established claim verification agency-- in the US it is the Library of Congress. This makes it a lot easier for you to prove infringement if a case ever has to go to court.
Also, it's confusing, I know, but once a song has been recorded and released to the public in some form (an official release, not a burned CD copy lent to a friend), anyone can do a cover version of the song, provided they obtain a license. Under US Copyright law, a license is compulsory, i.e., as long as someone files in good faith with an agency like Harry Fox or Limelight and pays a set fee, they can cover and release that song (again, after a first release by the original owner and/or licensee as in the record label). So I can do a whole double album of Rolling Stones covers, if I have paid for the privilege.
This right is completely separate from borrowing melody for a new composition, adding/re-arranging an existing piece (called a "derivative work"), sampling (a complete and whole 'nuther ball game), doing a re-mix, licensing for film, television, or musical theater use ("Grand Rights"), digital release rights, or any of those other related, but different side issues (all covered under different portions of US law and various international laws and agreements).
Copyright is huge business, which is why it is an area that many attorneys specialize in-- there is a lot of $$$$ involved.
So no, it's not a simple thing, and I would rather write something original than go around borrowing melodies from others ad hoc/unadvisedly...
GJ
Disclaimer-- NOT an attorney or barrister, so seek legal counsel. There are a number of sources in print and on-line that can help you get a better grip (and a more accurate one) on the basics of copyright law. I would start with the incredible primer by Donald Passman ("Everything You Always Wanted to Know about the Music Business..."), which gets into quite a bit of the nitty gritty of song copyright and dealing with labels. It helped me out a lot as a songwriter, recording artist, and having my own label (sometimes licensing songs or previous recordings for compilations, sometimes releasing original work). You can also find out a lot by checking-out the ASCAP and BMI websites, the Harry Fox website, and the Library of Congress copyright section.
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bandcoach
Zukatoku - Mod Scientist
back on topic
see
beginning theory practical melody writing tutorials and
guide to good melody writing for confused souls and
5 ingredients of good melodies and
14 tricks to improve your melodies
to be getting on with
UncleDutch
Record. Mix. Repeat.
I see what you were saying now. It was just worded funky. And I don't think it was plea. Dude has been selling sample-based beats to majors since 2008. He actually knows a thing or two about real-world scenarios.
On another note, I appreciate you both taking the time to help me(and others, I'm sure) understands this stuff a little better. I really do. Idefinitely learned something today.
On the topic of "lifting" melodies, we will have to agree to disagree . The original poster wanted help getting melodiesfor his hip-hip beats. And we all know hip-hop is based on sampling otherpeoples work. You may prefer to write something original if you have the knowledge or experience doing so, but if the OP isstating that he has trouble fitting drums to hit melodies, then it is safe tosay he is a beginner. He should learn a bit of music theory but he can have tons of fun findings existing melodies and using or manipulating them.
Thanks again to GJ for the breakdown! All this legal stuff, I have aheadache now.[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Y'all have a good weekend.[/FONT]
Snapy Dee
New member
I was about to post something like this at first.
I don't know man, learn a little bit about chords and you should be good. I usually just start playing some chords with different instruments to get inspired if i already don't have a melody in my head. Get on YouTube and search for tutorials about chords and melodies.
SwagProductionz
@SlurRty on Twitter
it;s not really melodies for him.. it's more sampling... work on your chops basically...
KaedenZero
New member
I usually find the midi for a song, import it in FL then rearrange it and whatnot. There are a lot of shortcuts and ways to manipulate stuff to get the type of sound you want but if you're really serious eventually you should study music theory. (Something that im trying to do myself)