Confused

Wallengard

Wallengard

Manipulator of energy
So after having been here for quite some time.. I've been getting interested in the flip this section and would like to chime in.

The only problem is I have no idea what/how other than using some samples?

If someone could clarify the rules of this game I'd much appreciate it.

Cheers,
Daniel
 
Yes, well I had read that already but I had some idea there would be more to it. So I just take any sample and make a track out of it? And what of all the posts here on this section, where people post links to the samples etc etc.. How do we even "flip" it if we can't legally acquire it? I mean, save for asking the creator himself for permission..

I was under the impression it was kind of a "look what I did with this sample, now you try it"
 
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This section is here to separate the sample-share/flip threads from sampling & crate digging related talk (this all used to happen in the same section a few years back). I'd recommend visiting Sampling & Digging section a bit if you want to understand what sampling means to users in theses sections better, the legal issues pop up often there as well. Or if you want to delve deeper into the mind state and lifestyle of digging (a subcultural phenomenon that relates to hip hop), I'd recommend reading Soulman's World of Beats articles here Soulman's World of Beats.

Sampling/digging is a lifestyle that by it's nature is very comparable to graffiti writing. It's countercultural, breaks society's norms and laws, and has quite a few norms of it's own though they have gotten looser with new generations of beat makers.

Wallengard said:
I was under the impression it was kind of a "look what I did with this sample, now you try it"
Click to expand...
It most likely is that for quite a few users.
 
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Ok i think I'm getting the hang of this now. Not entirely sure why it was so confusing to me in the first place but this makes more sense now.

What still bothers me is the fact that we can't just go out and grab the samples and do whatever with it, which I think I'd enjoy (not being a hip hop producer or anything) but I appreciate you clearing up the purpose of this section.

Cheers!
 
Wallengard said:
What still bothers me is the fact that we can't just go out and grab the samples and do whatever with it, which I think I'd enjoy (not being a hip hop producer or anything) but I appreciate you clearing up the purpose of this section.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Actually you can. Its just if you want to get "officially credited" and make money "on the books" for the track you created. You must get the samples cleared.
Otherwise you can use an "uncleared track" on demo songs, mix tapes etc. As long as your not "officially" getting paid for the track you created.
 
I'm afraid that you are wrong: the legality of using a sample without making money is the same as using one without clearances and making money: it is completely illegal.

In fact under the International Copyright Convention any use of a sample or even lyric and melody that is not cleared is illegal unless you are using it for the purposes of:
review/criticism,
educational assessment, or
creating a parody
 
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bandcoach said:
I'm afraid that you are wrong: the legality of using a sample without making money is the same as using using without clearances and making money: it is completely illegal.

In fact under the International Copyright Convention any use of a sample or even lyric and melody that is not cleared is illegal unless you are using it for the purposes of:
review/criticism,
educational assessment, or
creating a parody
Click to expand...

This is also how I had imagined it, which just reinforces my confusion about the whole "flip this" kind of thing.

The idea of it is actually quite fun, a type of contest game I would want to participate in, but with all the hassle that comes with it I think I'll just stick to my own productions and use this forum as I have always done: to try and help people with the limited knowledge I've gathered over the years.
 
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bandcoach said:
I'm afraid that you are wrong: the legality of using a sample without making money is the same as using using without clearances and making money: it is completely illegal.

In fact under the International Copyright Convention any use of a sample or even lyric and melody that is not cleared is illegal unless you are using it for the purposes of:
review/criticism,
educational assessment, or
creating a parody
Click to expand...

This is technically true but USUALLY no label, artist or anyone owning the rights to a song will come after you for using an uncleared sample on a demo song nor on a "mix tape" that you're not making a monetary gain. There are a few rare occasions in which an artist has been sued for using someone else track for none monetary gains but it is very rare.

"Typically, most independent releases selling 10,000 records or less remain under the radar and never draw broad enough attention to face the legal ramifications of NOT clearing samples. Having low sales expectations of your project and not clearing samples is still a dangerous place to be."
 
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Yes but as I stated no one is going to sue you unless you're making monetary gains. That is very rare.
If that were the case, for example, then majority of the indie artist on dat piff using songs with uncleared samples would be sued by now. It almost never happens unless theres money involved. That is reality
 
IAMGOD_OFFICIAL said:
This is technically true but USUALLY no label, artist or anyone owning the rights to a song will come after you for using an uncleared sample on a demo song nor on a "mix tape" that you're not making a monetary gain. There are a few rare occasions in which an artist has been sued for using someone else track for none monetary gains but it is very rare.

"Typically, most independent releases selling 10,000 records or less remain under the radar and never draw broad enough attention to face the legal ramifications of NOT clearing samples.Having low sales expectations of your project and not clearing samples is still a dangerous place to be."
Click to expand...

Yeah, exactly...also depends on how much money you have...the original artist isn't probably going to spend $10,000 or more on litigation if you have nothing in the bank. lol
 
it is misconceptions about the law like these that lead to bad advice being accepted by those who do not know any better

rights owners will litigate on the smell of an oily rag because the judgements are not based on what the defendant has in the bank but what damages the plaintiff has suffered in terms of reputation and lost sales
 
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bandcoach said:
it is misconceptions about the law like these that lead to bad advice being accepted by those who do not know any better

rights owners will litigate on the smell of an oily rag because the judgements are not based on what the defendant has in the bank but what damages the plaintiff has suffered in terms of reputation and lost sales
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Its not a misconception of the law, its REALITY. Ive been on the business side of entertainment for 15 years (not only music) and its VERY RARE OCCASIONS Ive seen someone sue over uncleared samples unless they can make money themselves. What Ive seen a lot in the business is the owner of rights to the song, wait for a song to blow up and make some money before they've chosen to sue. Like I said, if it wasn't the case majority of the artist and producers on DatPiff.com would have been sued by now because there are tons of songs with uncleared samples. This is fact!
 
bandcoach said:
it is misconceptions about the law like these that lead to bad advice being accepted by those who do not know any better

rights owners will litigate on the smell of an oily rag because the judgements are not based on what the defendant has in the bank but what damages the plaintiff has suffered in terms of reputation and lost sales
Click to expand...

Here's what an attorney wrote:

"Trouble tends to follow the money. While sampling without authorization is illegal, it is less likely if produced without commercial intent (or success) and distributed for promotion purposes only. Some may even argue that – as an unknown – a lawsuit based upon your mixtape can mean only good things ahead. That being said, if you’re working your way up or concerned about the legalities of your mixtape, your best bet is to contact an experienced lawyer in your area."
Adam Barnosky is a Boston-based attorney
Legally Produce Your Hip-Hop Mixtape | Performer Mag
 
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sorry, copyright law (in the US and elsewhere) is not about intent to profit from using someone else's creative expressions but about simply using them without authorisation/licence/permission. A lawyer who gives advice about not intending to profit is seeking new clients to defend (in my opinion)

PS I am sure that I could find several counter-opinions to Mr. Barnosky's without looking too hard
 
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bandcoach said:
sorry, copyright law (in the US and elsewhere) is not about intent to profit from using someone else's creative expressions but about simply using them without authorisation/licence/permission. A lawyer who gives advice about not intending to profit is seeking new clients to defend (in my opinion)

PS I am sure that I could find several counter-opinions to Mr. Barnosky's without looking too hard
Click to expand...

Which is why I said TECHNICALLY you're right but in REALITY almost no one is going to waste money to sue someone just to NOT get money in return. That just doesn't make sense from a business stand point. On VERY RARE OCCASIONS it has happened.

Let me explain it better. If what you said was always a reality as you put it, then this very website could be sued every time someone post a "flip" in the forum. Because this website has sponsors because of the traffic. Part of which brings traffic to this website is that producers like to come to the "FLIP THIS" forum and recreate songs and almost no one here has cleared any samples of the songs we've flipped and posted.

If what you say is reality then Futureproducers.com could be sued for allowing producers to post flips with uncleared samples on a website that paid by advertisers. And to my knowledge no one here has been sued yet. Like I said Ive been on the business side of entertainment for 15 years plus and Ive almost never seen anyone sue someone else just to purposely lose money.

Just my $.02 I'm done with this topic.
 
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bandcoach said:
sorry, copyright law (in the US and elsewhere) is not about intent to profit from using someone else's creative expressions but about simply using them without authorisation/licence/permission. A lawyer who gives advice about not intending to profit is seeking new clients to defend (in my opinion)

PS I am sure that I could find several counter-opinions to Mr. Barnosky's without looking too hard
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you could too. The judicial system is like 50 years behind technology so there is no clear precedent, hence the differing opinions. Plenty of producers have been sued for copyright infringement. The main point is that they all have something in common: assets which can be acquired through a settlement or court judgment. Try to find me an attorney who is going to take a case to sue a defendant who doesn't have any assets.
 
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