What tonearm height do you use for your Ortofon Concordes?

V

verbal

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I know this topic has been discussed. But since there are a lot of new people around here there have to be some new opinions. I'm spinning on New Years for a small group of friends. I'm calibrating my tables and setting up the tonearm since I haven't done it in over a year. I have Concorde nightclubs and was using 6mm for the height. But opinions around here say they should be at 0. What do you think?
 
I just called the American Ortofon distributer. A guy who works there said he'd come in and reply to this thread. Ewwhite is mostly right about the settings.

-Gene
 
gene-pool said:
I just called the American Ortofon distributer. A guy who works there said he'd come in and reply to this thread. Ewwhite is mostly right about the settings.
-Gene

Thaks f/the tip on this site gene !

Lot's of mis-information on tone-arm height adjustment because of that scale. It's strictly a reference and has no bearing whatsoever on what the correct adjustment should be.

Simple procedure : w/platter stopped and a record (and slip mat if used) in place, lower the tonearm so stylus is in the groove.
Adust the height so that, when looking from the side the tonearm is perfectly parallel to the record surface (ie neither nose up nor nose down.) should look like 2 railroad tracks.

If the arm is nose up, raise the height. Nose down, lower it. Keep in mind that a stylus does not track perpendicular to the record, but at an industry standard of 20 degrees. The only time that angle is maintained is when the tonearm is adjusted correctly. Hope this clears things up. BTW as a point of reference, my test set-up 1200mk III , using an Ortofon slip mat (what else?) reads 1.6.
Additionally, that tracking angle is also dependent on the correct trackig force ...please no pennies, dimes, etc on top of the TA...just creates distortion and increase record wear. Whew, I thing that covers it.
 
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WOW! Go Ortofon on some great Customer Service!!! And... While we've got your attention, what about Anti-skate? That seems to be of some debate also...
 
Also commonly misunderstood. If you keep in mind that records were not intended to played in the reverse direction.

Under normal hi-fi use anti- skate counteracts the rotatating records tendency to make the stylus "skate" towards the label by applyng an equal and opposite force towards the outer edge. So if you had a record w/ no grooves, theoretically the stylus would not move.

However, backcuieng and scratching creates a force towards the outer edge (ie reverse play-reverse force), so if you add in the antiskate force towards the outer edge, the stylus is more likely to skip. Sooooo, if you backcue/spin or scratch , you should have antiskate set to ZERO.
This keeps an equal pressure on both walls of a stereo groove.
In normal play direction the heavier tracking forces used by DJ carts makes the antiskate less of a influence that it does in hi-fi use where typical tracking forces are 1 1/2 grams vs 3 1/2 f/DJ carts. Hope this helped
 
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LOL... Did he just call us "spinners"? Anyways... thanks for the info... I'm glad I invested in your needles... (Even though I won't get them until the 25th... :()
 
Frank, thanks for coming by and sharing the info. I think you're the second representative of a dj related company to come by and fill us in (Silvio from Denon is the other). While we're on the subject of your needles I wanted to clear up another question that's been asked on this board lots of times: For Technics 1200's turntables do you suggest getting the Ortofon OM cartridges over the Concordes. I know you already explained the reasoning behind your contacts to be but, when you get a chance please elaborate more on the subject here. Also, could you explain what the best way of mounting an OM cartridge on a headshell is? Further back or forward and why?

Thanks again.
-Gene
 
Thanks Frank

i'll try running parallel to the platter. i've been running at a 0 height for years. there's nothing like hearing it from the horses mouth! (not that you're a horse Frank :D ). i've always wondered why this type of info isn't included with the carts, especially dj carts since they are aimed at a specific group of consumers. - jeff h
 
Yeah. This forum rules.

Thanks for the info, Ortofon! Highly-educated insight direct from the professionals is always super-sweet! You can also keep us up-to-date on new product releases...nudge-nudge, wink-wink :cool:
 
Yeah........

The legacy of people using too high a tonearm height remains simply because people use the Technics manual and adjust from their values.
However, what everyone forgets is that the guide is intended for use with the monster rubber mats that come with Technics - not a 1mm thick slipmat!
Also i think the rep got the forces on the anti-skate the wrong way round, but we all know what he meant.
Peace
Deft
 
Ok...newest first :

Hello Deft in the UK :cheers: Actually youre right , my force decriptions were backwards. Thanks f/pointing it out . I've gone back and edited the post so new readers won't be mis- led.
Anti-skating phrase is coined from the description of an ice skater standing in the center of the rink, holding your hand at arms length, spinning you in a circle. When you're let go, you will "skate" towards the outer edge of the rink, due to the rotating/ centrifugal force.
On a turntable , the tonearm is pivoted outside of the rotating platter, so the stylus "skate" is toward the label/spindle,
Not as critical an adjustment in DJ use as it is in HI-Fi use where tracking forces are much lower and stylus shapes more exotic.
 
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Dynagroove/Jeff H >>>like the cat photo !! :)

Believe it or not, your eyes are incredibly accurate at guaging this. If you had a room w/perfectly level floor/ceiling and were hanging a picture on the wall you could measure it w/ a ruler all day long and still not get it perfect...but if you step back 5' your eyes will pick up if it's off ever so slightly.

The reason cart manufacturers don't put this in the instructions is because it is a TT set up issue, just like anti-skating. That may sound like a cop-out I know, but that's the reason. Again, this is not too critical in DJ use (try to get it close) as opposed to Hi-Fi applications, where the stylus shapes are more exotic.
 
gene-pool said:
Frank (quote snipped) For Technics 1200's turntables do you suggest getting the Ortofon OM cartridges over the Concordes. I know you already explained the reasoning behind your contacts to me but, when you get a chance please elaborate more on the subject here. Also, could you explain what the best way of mounting an OM cartridge on a headshell is? Further back or forward and why? Thanks again. -Gene
OM (which btw stands f/ "optimum mass", due to the removable weight in the top plate) vs Concorde is really a matter of personal choice. The OM is less expensive because it lacks the integrated haedshell/finger lift. The CC is more convenient because there are no little wires to attach or adjustments within the headshell.
So, if you're heavy handed , the CC is the better choice.
Now factor in the "contacts" issue and we have another consideration. Because DJs take these on and off frequently, the contacts can oxidize due to finger contact and exposure to normal humidity, etc. (please no licking them, it's a temp solution that accelerates the oxidation). This is not so much a problem f/the Technics headshell because it is made to specfically fit /match the tonearm. However cart manufacturers have to compromise the spacing of the contacts slightly to fit all makes of TT, be it Numark, Gemini, Stanton, etc. In any event, there's no question that the mounting method (called SME mount) is a very weak link in a TT for DJ use. Contacts cutting in and out would not be an issue f/home use where once it's on, it's on.

Within the last year Ortofon has changed the shape of these contacts from flat to round, and changed the formulation of the gold plating, so it has helped the problem. (do you think the Shure Whitelabel specs on there website " reliable electrical contacts" was aimed at us ? :) )

To maintain good contact, the factory now recommends swabbing them w/ a q-tip lightly moistened w/ WD-40. Also apply to the 4 contacts within the tonearm and to the threads of the TA mounting collar. The last because mounting/removing carts on a regular basis creates aluminum oxide dust which gets inside the TA and RUSTS.

The inside of the OM and CC is the same and all the stylii are interchageable among all the models, Thus, sound/performance is not an issue in the choice. Orotofon Denmark does not always update the specs of the older models, but whenever there' s an improvement, it is appled to the entire model production.

Positioning an OM in the headshell (called "overhang") is done by using the round , plastic guage supplied w/ the TT. One end fits over the tonearm and the stylus should line up w/the tiny hole at the other end. Move forward or back until it does. If you've lost the guage I beleive subsiturtes are available at the Shack. (flat ones that fit over the center spindle)

Now to why : (gene, you got me writing an essay here, it was easier on the phone because I'm a hunt and peck typist) The only way a stylus tracks a record accurately over its entire surface is when you have a TT w/ a linear tracking tonearm (ie not pivoted) Thus the "angle" of the cart never changes. However w/a pivoted tonearm, the angle is constantly changing and is only 100% at two spots in it's sweep acroos the record. All other places are a slight compromise. (btw the guage adjustment is at one of those spots.) So the better you can adjust the OM within the headshell slots, the less of a tracking error. Again, less critical in DJ setups than hi-fi systems.

Tonearms w/ no "S" shape or angled headshell--ie completely straight, have the most error.
 
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Thanks for typing all of that out! It's really helpful considering the amount of wrong information floating around about the discussed topics.

-Gene
 
No problem gene. Also, I don't want to give the impression that I'm a DJ, because I'm not. (although I do have one working w/us)
However, I have been the hi-fi business for more years than I care to remember, and w/Ortofon f/ almost 18 yrs.

I have to sign off until Mon and will respopnd to any new posts then. Enjoy the weekend !
 
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Thanks for the questions you already answered Frank, those answers already solve a lot of discussions.

Now the killer question though :D
We know that the styli are interchangeable, but there are several schools of thought about how it affects the specs of the carts.
Some people say it's the actual cartridge that defines the specs, others say it's the stylus, and then there are some that say it's the combination that makes for the specs. Personally I'm more inclined to the latter two.

Let me give an example. Suppose I get an Ortofon Pro S (concorde or OM, not important). But later I fit a Nightclub stylus on it.
What about the specs of that combo???

Do you still have the Pro S specs, or do you suddenly have a Nightclub with different colors. Or will the specs be completely different?

I know a lot of guys that try to fool Ortofon, by saying, get the cheapest cartridge, and put a high end replacement stylus on it, and voila, you have the best cartridge for a lower price...
Surely this can't be true???
 
Ortofon said:


Thaks f/the tip on this site gene !

Lot's of mis-information on tone-arm height adjustment because of that scale. It's strictly a reference and has no bearing whatsoever on what the correct adjustment should be.

Simple procedure : w/platter stopped and a record (and slip mat if used) in place, lower the tonearm so stylus is in the groove.
Adust the height so that, when looking from the side the tonearm is perfectly parallel to the record surface (ie neither nose up nor nose down.) should look like 2 railroad tracks.

If the arm is nose up, raise the height. Nose down, lower it. Keep in mind that a stylus does not track perpendicular to the record, but at an industry standard of 21 degrees. The only time that angle is maintained is when the tonearm is adjusted correctly. Hope this clears things up. BTW as a point of reference, my test set-up 1200mk III , using an Ortofon slip mat (what else?) reads 1.6.
Additionally, that tracking angle is also dependent on the correct trackig force ...please no pennies, dimes, etc on top of the TA...just creates distortion and increase record wear. Whew, I thing that covers it.

When I set it at 0mm, the tonearm doesn't look perfectly parallel to the record. You can't set it any lower than 0mm, so there is no way to get it totally parallel. I have 1200s BTW.
 
Yes, I saw that too, but I've heard more often than once that it shouldn't be the tonearm that should be parallel, but the base of the cartridge. This seems plausible to me as that bottom of the plastic is always angled the same way (compared different models and brands).

What about it???
 
i noticed this as well at 0"

i'm using an average thickness slipmat and for the tonearm to be parallel to the record i'd have to be using a much thicker one. i also noticed that (at least on my 12's) i can adjust the height almost 1 measurement below 0" (which would be like -1" or the opposite of "these go to 11":D ). anyway, that put the tonearm closer to parallel. i also noticed when locking the height adjustment on one of my decks, the tonearm would move up a little, but not on the other deck. the entire tonarm base is loose on the one deck when it's not locked and solid as a rock on the other. any ideas on how to tighten the one back up? thanks - jeff h
 
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