Are SOUNDCLICK producers that desperate now?

[wildinout8]

1. it does matter who the outlet is.
2. You don't sell music to supervisors (at least I don't)


I've been in the licensing game since 03/04. Pricing on Soundclick $10/$20/$30 enter whatever low ball price you like has never affected my business. I don't roll with cheap libraries (pump/getty/ etc etc). Anyone whose in this game knows first hand that's a quick way to be black balled from higher end libraries and contracts with prod houses.

i negotiate a lot of my own terms w/o supervisors and the ones i do work with, wont waste their time with cheap tracks as it's less commission for them in the end.

I understand where you're coming from with your statements, but again, it's never affected me.

If you don't mind me asking - how have your sales been in the past few years in comparison to 2003?

Also, great tip for producers on here regarding the cheap libraries and your perception of "quality" from being in them.

 

[DaBomb]

You don't see how lowball prices affect all of us? Are you in the music library game? If you are, I highly doubt you'd be saying that.

I see both sides of yalls arguments but you have to look at it like this.

Selling beats is like selling a clothing line at Wal Mart. It doesn't affect what Tom Ford or J.Crew is doing price wise. If anything it helps make them feel exclusive.

On the macro scale of course it does wind up affecting the overall market for beat pricing just like the pricing for a cotton shirt is going to be comparatively cheaper then it used to be.

But that was bound to happen. The barrier to entry is nearly non existen. Think about it, you used to have to pay for actual hardware, go out and build a PC and pay a arm and a leg for a developer to build you a site.

Nowadays even computers are dead cheap and software is the standard unless your going for a specific sound on purpose. So the price can't be artificially lifted forever it was bound to come down.


But overall soundclick is for a specific market of rappers. If you feel your beats command a more premium price you have to go to a more "exclusive mall". But you'll notice the foot traffic is a lot slower.

 

[wildinout8]

I see both sides of yalls arguments but you have to look at it like this.

Selling beats is like selling a clothing line at Wal Mart. It doesn't affect what Tom Ford or J.Crew is doing price wise. If anything it helps make them feel exclusive.

On the macro scale of course it does wind up affecting the overall market for beat pricing just like the pricing for a cotton shirt is going to be comparatively cheaper then it used to be.

But that was bound to happen. The barrier to entry is nearly non existen. Think about it, you used to have to pay for actual hardware, go out and build a PC and pay a arm and a leg for a developer to build you a site.

Nowadays even computers are dead cheap and software is the standard unless your going for a specific sound on purpose. So the price can't be artificially lifted forever it was bound to come down.


But overall soundclick is for a specific market of rappers. If you feel your beats command a more premium price you have to go to a more "exclusive mall". But you'll notice the foot traffic is a lot slower.

I understand your analogy and it makes perfect sense - it's like saying the price of a Big Mac isn't going to affect what price Phillips decides to sell their crab cakes for. Again, makes perfect sense.

Unfortunately, that is not exactly how it works in the music industry. Soundclick and Audio Jungle have been the 2 main sources used as examples for low-ball and racing-to-the-bottom pricing, but what they really reflect is the growing trend of devaluing music on a smaller scale. Again, there are interesting interviews from numerous big time Hollywood composers and hip hop producers (two of the biggest achievements we strive for here on FP, correct?) talking about the value of music AS A WHOLE since the 90's available on the internet. I do realize some of it was due to Napster and pirating.

I appreciate all of the opinions hope you continue to succeed.

 

[DaBomb]

I understand your analogy and it makes perfect sense - it's like saying the price of a Big Mac isn't going to affect what price Phillips decides to sell their crab cakes for. Again, makes perfect sense.

Unfortunately, that is not exactly how it works in the music industry. Soundclick and Audio Jungle have been the 2 main sources used as examples for low-ball and racing-to-the-bottom pricing, but what they really reflect is the growing trend of devaluing music on a smaller scale. Again, there are interesting interviews from numerous big time Hollywood composers and hip hop producers (two of the biggest achievements we strive for here on FP, correct?) talking about the value of music AS A WHOLE since the 90's available on the internet. I do realize some of it was due to Napster and pirating.

I appreciate all of the opinions hope you continue to succeed.

But you know the value of music has more to do with the barrier to entry lowering rather then producers low balling each other.

I mean I have a hard time believing DJ Mustard got paid for the 30 odd beats he made for YG up front. I don't believe Mike Will got paid up front for Future's early mixtape material. But of course they got it on the back end


So in a sense Mike Will and DJ mustard were lowballing us. It's just the market were in.

 

[wildinout8]

But you know the value of music has more to do with the barrier to entry lowering rather then producers low balling each other.

Do you think things would be different if producers were unable to pirate software and VSTs?

Maybe if people were unable to make beats with stolen software and a $200 laptop they may feel more inclined to price their product higher since their work actually has an inherent value attached to it from the equipment they had to purchase? Also, the market would not be as oversaturated with low-talent producers trying to find their one distinguishable factor: beats cheaper than the next producer? Just some ideas and not trying to beat a dead horse.

Also, I've read that Mustard was paid $25,000 upfront per beat in an interview.

 

[DaBomb]

I understand your analogy and it makes perfect sense - it's like saying the price of a Big Mac isn't going to affect what price Phillips decides to sell their crab cakes for. Again, makes perfect sense.

Unfortunately, that is not exactly how it works in the music industry. Soundclick and Audio Jungle have been the 2 main sources used as examples for low-ball and racing-to-the-bottom pricing, but what they really reflect is the growing trend of devaluing music on a smaller scale. Again, there are interesting interviews from numerous big time Hollywood composers and hip hop producers (two of the biggest achievements we strive for here on FP, correct?) talking about the value of music AS A WHOLE since the 90's available on the internet. I do realize some of it was due to Napster and pirating.

I appreciate all of the opinions hope you continue to succeed.

Do you think things would be different if producers were unable to pirate software and VSTs?

Maybe if people were unable to make beats with stolen software and a $200 laptop they may feel more inclined to price their product higher since their work actually has an inherent value attached to it from the equipment they had to purchase? Also, the market would not be as oversaturated with low-talent producers trying to find their one distinguishable factor: beats cheaper than the next producer? Just some ideas and not trying to beat a dead horse.

Also, I've read that Mustard was paid $25,000 upfront per beat in an interview.

I think clamping down on software pirating is as useful as coming down on music pirating. Honestly most software is going to a subscription model so that might open up floodgates even more. It's a gift and a curse because I was listening to an interview where DJ Paul had to borrow $7500 for equipment to get started. His brother sold drugs so he could make that happen.

What if he didn't have that brother. How would DJ Paul have gotten on? I mean this software opens the playing field to everyone and I think it allows for more creativity as we can service more niche markets that crop up. We're not stuck making knock off Timbaland, pharrell and dj premier beats. We can fit in our own lane. I'm struggling to find the right BUYING clients for my work too. But on the plus side I know that my career track doesn't have to mirror Mike Will or Lex Luger.

 

[Cyko]

If you don't mind me asking - how have your sales been in the past few years in comparison to 2003?

Also, great tip for producers on here regarding the cheap libraries and your perception of "quality" from being in them.

They've been great, but that's hardly a fair comparison as my client and connection base then was very small. When I say "my business hasn't been a affected", what I mean is, my profits continue to increase yearly.

Even on a project by project basis, prices haven't shifted much in my market. That's only a personal observation though. I'm sure if I was the 20k a license guy who now does 15% of that, I'd be screaming.

 

[Handmade]

They've been great, but that's hardly a fair comparison as my client and connection base then was very small. When I say "my business hasn't been a affected", what I mean is, my profits continue to increase yearly.

Even on a project by project basis, prices haven't shifted much in my market. That's only a personal observation though. I'm sure if I was the 20k a license guy who now does 15% of that, I'd be screaming.

I've heard biz has gone down some... A lot of upfront payments have now disappeared for music licensing.. I'm working on an album for a sub-label of a very prominent music publisher, and I'm not going to be paid upfront. It's kind of sad, but I probably wouldn't have gotten into music without the internet, so it's a blessing too.

 

[Cyko]

I've heard biz has gone down some... A lot of upfront payments have now disappeared for music licensing.. I'm working on an album for a sub-label of a very prominent music publisher, and I'm not going to be paid upfront. It's kind of sad, but I probably wouldn't have gotten into music without the internet, so it's a blessing too.

Possible, but see, I don't know how that side of the business is as I don't go through a publisher (other than myself). See, what that publisher can do is tell you nothing upfront, but pocket upfront money and just allow you to be paid on the backend while still taking their cut.

Not all publishers do this, but I know some respected ones that do and there's nothing illegal about that.

The good thing about repeat clients is you can start requesting upfront advances on projects.

 

[Handmade]

Possible, but see, I don't know how that side of the business is as I don't go through a publisher (other than myself). See, what that publisher can do is tell you nothing upfront, but pocket upfront money and just allow you to be paid on the backend while still taking their cut.

Not all publishers do this, but I know some respected ones that do and there's nothing illegal about that.

The good thing about repeat clients is you can start requesting upfront advances on projects.

By upfront, I mean upfront payments, or an advance, not the sync fee that the TV station pays to use the track. For this album with the publisher, I'm going to be getting 50% of the sync fees, and 100% of the writers share of the royalties. This is the case with most higher end companies, unless there is an upfront payment, where they might want all of the sync fees, but you get decent-good upfront $, and the whole writers share.. It would be illegal for the company to pocket the whole license fee in the former, as it says on the contract and other contracts I sign with no upfront that I'm entitled to 50% of all net receipts/profits that the company makes off of the track(s).

 

[Cyko]

^^^
Very true, the devil is in the details.

 

[Cory P.]

Random analogy - smuts ain't gettin wifed up more than the intelligent dimepieces.

Are you a smut or are you a dimepiece? To each their own, but...

These is a pretty good example, on FREE dating websites like PlentyOfFish/OKCupid there is no subscription fee which shift things in the females favor. They receive hundreds of messages from thirsty guys, and as a result are able to hook up with guys who would otherwise be out of their league. Where as on paid sites like match.com where you have to pay $30 a month, this evens things out where dating is mutually beneficial, dudes don't have to settle for trashy women, and the females don't get "pumped and dumped" by playas.

The reason broke Rappers love Soundclick (other than the $25 beats) is that they can say they got a beat from a dude with credits, where as the local dudes with major credits would charge them atleast $500 a beat. It is actually detrimental for both sides, the Rappers don't get to interact with the Producer and fully develop the song (he has hundreds of other rappers he's dealing with, no time), the Producer gets his money but it doesn't result in anything long term, a $25 beat Rapper is not going to book shows or release a project properly.

 

[Desire Inspires]

LMAO. I only work with exclusive libraries for my grade A stuff... Libraries that are sub-published all over the world and are members of the PMA. No lowball libraries on my end.. I'm about to start on a few albums for one of the top 5 best publishers in the US. Good $ upfront, as well as writers share on the backend. Why don't you quit assuming things?

Let me make this clear.

SOUNDCLICK DOES NOT AFFECT THE MUSIC LIBRARY MARKET AT ALL! SOUNDCLICK CATERS TO A DIFFERENT MARKET ALTOGETHER. NO ONE IS GOING TO GO ON SOUNDCLICK LOOKING FOR SONGS FOR COMMERCIALS/SHOWS.

THE LOWEST TIER LIBRARIES LIKE AUDIOJUNGLE, ROYALTY FREE, ETC DON'T AFFECT MY MARKET BECAUSE THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT MARKETS. 99% OF THE TIME, A CREATIVE DIRECTOR/MUSIC SUPERVISOR FOR A COMMERCIAL/AD DOESN'T GO ON THESE LOW TIER LIBRARIES TO SEARCH FOR THE MUSIC FOR THEIR AD. DO YOU KNOW WHY?? BECAUSE THE MUSIC IS GARBAGE 99.999% OF THE TIME. THEY GO ON PLACES LIKE EXTREME MUSIC, KILLERTRACKS, MEGATRAX, ETC WHERE GREAT MUSIC IS MADE.

You know what's up. That is awesome.