Am I rubbish, or is Reason holding me back?

Olliepm

New member
Hi all, and a merry Xmas! Sorry in advance, because I know similar topics will already exist, but I would prefer replies relating to my individual circumstances, if you can appreciate that.

I'm thinking about learning Ableton, solely for better sound quality for dubstep style productions. I've just reached a stage where I'm very comfortable with Reason and all those knobs and buttons aren't so daunting anymore, but my music still doesn't sound that 'massive' way. I don't particularly want to have to start from scratch with new software, but the more I read into it, the more I find people stating that Reason is inferior in terms of sound quality. I guess my main question is - Is it Reason, or is it me? I'm certainly no expert, but I wonder whether if I'd put all the time into Ableton rather than Reason, I would have achieved better results. In any case I'm prepared to do whatever I need to if I'm convinced it's the best course of action, even if I do love Reason, and I do. :(

I can't seem to find any productions made with Reason that sound the way I'd like to, other than perhaps this: ZMIX - Chemical Plant ZMiX - Chemical Plant Zone (Dubstep / Electro Remix) * Sonic 2 * - YouTube

This is my tune to give an example of the level I'm at with Reason: https://soundcloud.com/echo-gecko/harlot

And here are a few 'pro' tunes that demonstrate the sound production quality I'd love to achieve:

Borgore - Flex Borgore - Flex (Dubstep Mix) (Official Video) - YouTube

Skism - Experts SKisM - Experts (Official Video) - YouTube


Many, many thanks for reading! :)
 
here are some beats made in reason !










So no, the problem is you

you need to learn proper layering, mixing and eqing


ableton is sick tho, i'm using it more and more
 
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Hey, thanks for the quick reply. I like your beats, and the quality is great for the genre, but I don't feel I can use this material to support the idea that it's possible to make huge sounding dubstep songs. The dynamics are a lot more complex, in my opinion. To be fair though, once I learned a basic side chain compression method, in imporved the quality of my music in a gigantic way, so I definitely understand where you're coming from with what you said about proper layering etc. If you have any tutorial videos you'd recommend I check out, I'd be grateful? With layering, I understand the importance, however I usually just use trial and error with different samples until I find something I like for drums. With EQ, I understand the theory of giving everything it's own space, and cutting over boosting wherever possible, but sometimes I find that the whole mix sounded better with no EQ at all, rather than applying EQ to everything in a 'by the book' fashion.
 
Hey man, I really dig that tune of yours you posted up. Listened to it on laptop speakers so I couldn't get a good idea of how it's really supposed to sound, but as a song itself I was feeling it. Note that the 'pro' examples you posted, along with those Khalil songs that were posted, have all been professionally mastered and are not simply direct exports/bounces straight out of Reason.

I used to use Reason, haven't used it since version 3.0, but you can definitely get a good sound out of it. It just comes with time and experience. Over time you'll know where things are supposed to sit in a mix and you'll be able to figure it out. If I were you I'd try to do little practice tracks, making them as simple as possible, and focus on getting a good clean mix. Stay away from using built in presets that boost or fatten sounds on whatever effects are available on Reason right now. Mix with your eyes using spectrum analyzers and figure out what is supposed to sit where. I'm not sure if a spectrum analyzer is available in Reason itself right now; I know when I was using 3.0 years ago there was a way to wire the vocoder plugin to be used as a spectrum analyzer. Also I hope you're layering your drums. There are tons of ways to fatten your drums up on Reason (or anything else), through layering, things like NY Compression, using aux send effects and mixing both signals instead of just using an insert effect, etc... Also I hope you're using multiple mixers instead of just one mixer for everything. I'm not sure how Reason works now but when I was using it I'd create a mixer for drums, mixer for my highs/fills, mixer for leads/synth noises. If you're using ReDrum you can route each sample to it's own channel. That's one thing I loved about reason; hitting TAB and having access to all that routing was awesome.
 
Thanks for replying, and this was the sort of answer I was hoping for. I wasn't sure whether or not every track I've heard that qualifies as decent in my view would have been mastered by a pro, but that makes me feel slightly less hopeless! I still reckon with the right know how, it can be done to the standard I'm hoping though. Thanks for the nice comments about my track =] It's the first I've made that sounded semi - decent to me.


I'm currently using Reason v5, but had been planning on upgrading to 6 for some time. I understand 6.5 now supports VST, which seems to be where a lot of the big sounds come from these days. This thread is to determine whether it's worth it, I suppose.

I actually don't have a set way of doing things just yet. I'm always learning new tricks and changing it up. I use a lot of small mixers within combinator patches, so that the main mixer doesn't have too much going on, but I can be lazy with re-routing things like that when I've got tons of parameter automation I'd like to get done. Still, every time I start a new project, I'm always trying to be as organised as possible, at least to begin with.

Until right now, If I wanted to change the drum mix mid track, I would edit the note velocity in the sequencer, but I've started to notice that the compressors end up counter acting these edits to the point of the method being broken. I had no idea that main mixer automation was so simple, and I didn't use it in the track I posted, but I thought it should be my main focus next track. I used to use redrum, but now I use Kong routed to redrum's sequencer. Kong is AWESOME. Each drum patch allows for sample layering, and a small effects chain, all within the Kong interface, as well as your standard gain controls etc. I never bothered routing each patch to a proper mixer, just because Kong offers a lot of control. If you think I ought to do it your way, I will take the advice though. I do layer my drums, but it's generally guess work. I don't really know any rules to follow. I suppose I have a problem getting my snares to sound huge and punch AND clean at the same time. I use aux reverb, but that's about it. Everything else is specific to the instrument.

I use a pre-set mastering suite called 'Energy', and if it ain't broke, I don't fix it. With mastering, I spend most of my time on the stereo imager. It seems to help things sound bigger. For the tune you heard, the master eq was flat, and the compressor and maximiser were left at their presets if I remember correctly, because I needed them to make the track louder. I actually compose, mix, and master with this mastering suite active from the beginning rather than waiting till I'm finished with everything else. I've been wondering whether that is a bad habit?

It used to just frighten me pressing the tab key because I was afraid to tamper with anything and end up with no sound at all, but now this is something I've also grown to really appreciate. I think it likely teaches sound design skills in a more practical way.

I've never used a spectrum analyzer to date, because as far as I know there is no such thing within Reason actually designed for that purpose. I suppose the vocoder could be used in such a way, but I'd like to think there would be something more built for purpose available.

Anyway, I've said a lot that no one asked to hear, but I thought maybe it would help people point me in the right direction from where I am. Once again, I really appreciate this great reply, and the nice comments. =]
 
I dont make dubstep but from what ive seen people do in the program i use is amazing. I recommend either learning how to mix on reason or try fl studio,its pretty nice for dubstep. I dont know the quality your looking for in a great dubstep beat but check out these guys.

 
That top video is FILTHY. Love it! Is it your composition? If so, gives a link to your soundcloud if you have one, and I'll follow you. But there's the thing, I've heard plenty of the sound I like come out of FL, Ableton, Cubase etc. but I'm really trying to find out if I'd be better off learning new software from the start as opposed to advancing in Reason, because If it is quite within my grasp to get what I'm after using Reason, I'd much rather do that. I've used Rewire with Pro Tools and Cubase in the past, but I was never a fan because apart with sync issues when recording audio, I hate when Reason if forced to lock certain controls as the slave program. Thanks for the reply =]

EDIT* I realize now that video is not your own, but still feel free to gain a follower!
 
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Ollie, it's simple "the more you do something the better you get at doing it."

I'll say that again

THE MORE YOU DO SOMETHING
THE BETTER YOU GET AT IT

Instead of worrying that the software is holding you back, look at what things you do not know how to do yet, whether it be composition (melody, chords, rhythm), sound design, mixing, creative eq, creative application of effects, etc

When you have made your list, decide which facet you want to tackle first and so on: set yourself an agenda for learning within your current daw.

Changing software won't fix anything, it will only highlight different aspects of the same basic problems; it's like changing boats mid-trip or horses mid-race - very difficult and usually not worth the ensuing pain.......
 
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Now that Reason has audio built-in... there are zero excuses.

The only thing holding you back is your brain. That's not me being an @sshole... that's the honest truth.
 
beating a dead horse here. You might wanna work on your mixing and arrangement skills. Like bandcoach said I doubt you'd get better by just switching D.A.W.'s.
 
Instead of worrying that the software is holding you back, look at what things you do not know how to do yet, whether it be composition (melody, chords, rhythm), sound design, mixing, creative eq, creative application of effects, etc

As I mentioned somewhere earlier, when I learned a basic method of side chain compression, everything improved tenfold, but I only knew about this techniques importance in dubstep when someone mentioned it in an unrelated video. Sometimes I wonder what I should be learning that I don't even know about yet. All I'm learning at the moment is how to use NN-XT because it's the one plug in I almost never use, for all it's potential.

Thanks for replying to everyone before this, and I'm not going to think anyone's constructive criticism makes them an a-hole, so no worries there.

I feel there may be some missing the point though. I'm looking for evidence of Reason's potential in this genre, based on other threads I've read wherein people who commented saying that Reason has inferior filters and such, but I am in no place to know whether or not such things are true. I'm still waiting for someone posting pure filth made exclusively with Reason =D
 
As I mentioned somewhere earlier, when I learned a basic method of side chain compression, everything improved tenfold, but I only knew about this techniques importance in dubstep when someone mentioned it in an unrelated video. Sometimes I wonder what I should be learning that I don't even know about yet. All I'm learning at the moment is how to use NN-XT because it's the one plug in I almost never use, for all it's potential.

Thanks for replying to everyone before this, and I'm not going to think anyone's constructive criticism makes them an a-hole, so no worries there.

I feel there may be some missing the point though. I'm looking for evidence of Reason's potential in this genre, based on other threads I've read wherein people who commented saying that Reason has inferior filters and such, but I am in no place to know whether or not such things are true. I'm still waiting for someone posting pure filth made exclusively with Reason =D

well, dj toomp made this beat in reason:



 
Check out boyinaband on youtube. he has a dubstep tutorial there you can get some ideas from.
He also has a lot of other great tutorials.

You can also just search "reason dubstep tutorial" in youtube search.

 
As I mentioned somewhere earlier, when I learned a basic method of side chain compression, everything improved tenfold, but I only knew about this techniques importance in dubstep when someone mentioned it in an unrelated video. Sometimes I wonder what I should be learning that I don't even know about yet. All I'm learning at the moment is how to use NN-XT because it's the one plug in I almost never use, for all it's potential.

Thanks for replying to everyone before this, and I'm not going to think anyone's constructive criticism makes them an a-hole, so no worries there.

I feel there may be some missing the point though. I'm looking for evidence of Reason's potential in this genre, based on other threads I've read wherein people who commented saying that Reason has inferior filters and such, but I am in no place to know whether or not such things are true. I'm still waiting for someone posting pure filth made exclusively with Reason =D

just about every negative thing you read about a piece of software here needs to be taken with a grain of salt (or more correctly, a bag of salt)

That is because most of the people making those comments do not have very much experience of any aspect of production, let alone in using the software they are knocking.

Some people to pay attention to include Xabiton, d'ranged, moses, krushing, sleepy, foggy, obik, rhythmgj, morningstar, stillfunkin (there are quite a few more but that is a starting point). If they say the filters are shit then I would be inclined to believe them. However, in my own experience (which spans 35 years and counting) I do not think that there are any issues with any aspect of Reason except for it's lack of support for notation. That said, notation is not what reason is about, it works at a different level, one with which I am comfortable because it is based in the earliest traditions of step sequencing, as found in Pro-12, Pro-16 for the Commodore 64 and Pro-24 for the Commodore 64 and the AtariSt.

Put more bluntly: unless you know that the person who is telling you it is shite has a bit of experience with the software and a deep knowledge of the subject of audio in general, I'd ignore them.

Spend time addressing your learning deficiencies: this means researching production techniques and compositional techniques.

Go to the Propellorheads channel on youtube and watch all of the videos on using reason; use your copy of reason to duplicate what is being done so that you have it available for future use. Anything and I mean anything that catches your interest, make sure that you save a combinator patch or other instrument patch with the content so that you can dial it in quickly and easily whenever you want to use it in the future.

read my tutorials to get to the nuts and bolts of how different aspects of music fit together.

Ask questions that have a very narrow, specific focus, so that you get good, focused answers that you can apply with little delay.
 
I understand 6.5 now supports VST, which seems to be where a lot of the big sounds come from these days. This thread is to determine whether it's worth it, I suppose.

It doesn't, but instead it supports their own "plugin" type called Rack Extensions.

As for spectrum analyzers...they seem to be pretty misunderstood in the sense that the realtime math used to get that visual spectrum out of audio does cut a lot of corners; this means that analyzers aren't very accurate (especially in the low end), and they're always just a very rough representation of the audio anyway. They can be occasionally used to identify frequency buildups and such, but it's way too easy to slip into the habit of trying to "check the mix" by looking at the spectrum and forgetting about listening analytically. In other words: they're not needed, and can often be misguiding rather than helpful. Your ears are the best analyzer there is.
 
here is a some tutorials on sidechaining in Reason
https://www.youtube.com/results?sea...84.23j11j1j0j2.37.0...0.0...1ac.1.VbIaNlgms9s



-Coach Antonio

Fatal: he already knows how to do this - it is what he said, that he discovered it when reading an unrelated post to his core interest area of dubstep

I knew it !! You're not a 12 year old super genius ! MUHAHA

nope a 50 year old regular genius (iq measured at 134 last time it was done (where "normal" is 100; definitely outside the 3 SD required to be labeled genius) but I don't brag about it usually as being a genius has done nothing for me personally, socially or otherwise..........
 
Thanks for all replies to date

@fataltone I know a corner cutting method of sidechaining, but I would still be interested in other methods that might be more successful. All instruments during 'drops' are side chained to compressors, which are triggered by redrums sequencer on the one beat, and the half time snare. To me it seems like a huge time saver, and pitfall dodger, but it did seem a bit lazy on my part to be honest.

@krushing I knew very little to do with spectrum analyzers before, and appreciate your advice. I will need to look into Reason 6.5's plugin support, because I'm not sure what you mean on that subject.

Somebody said in one of the other threads that although it's perfectly possible to create these sounds with Reason, it tends to be more time consuming than with Ableton for e.g. How much more time consuming is the question now, I suppose...
 
Again, I would caution you to take the opinion that it is quicker to do something in Ableton with a very large bag of salt -

I can program most sounds I want in subtractor in about 5 minutes - I know what I am doing and so the process is very quick - ask me to do that with OSC123 and I would take an hour, because I do not know my way around the interface nor intimately understand how the different sections of OSC123 actually react and behave given certain parameter tweaks. It does not mean that I cannot program them in OSC123, just that I would need to work longer and harder (and the times quoted are ball-park to highlight the time factor: a 10:1 ratio in ease of programming between the two for me) to achieve the same outcome. I am not as much a diva with thor or malstrom, but I can still program them quicker than I could equivalent types of soft-synths in other daws.

I would suggest that you get a hold of

Welsh's Synthesizer Cookbook: Analog Synthesizer Programming

and

read all of the articles in this series

Synth Secrets: Links to All Parts

to improve your knowledge of how to program sounds
 
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