No More Mixing in Ableton LIVE...

biggrome said:
I understand what you're saying but you're almost arguing my case for me...

Other DAW's can handle the "audio sources" with no problem.... even if the audio sources are rendered out of Ableton LIVE.


There is a SIMPLE 5 minute test that can be done.... the EAR test.

I think the EAR test should be the end of all audio arguments... If you can hear a difference, there IS a difference. Anybody care to explain why people are against the EAR test? and would rather talk programming and bit depth

REAPER | Download
Click to expand...

I really don't want to do an A/B test with SoundCloud 192kpbs (or something like that) streaming. I suspect there's something else like the final mastering or lack of mastering plugins where each DAW has different characteristics for the output. Or, what also has an impact is the gain on the final mastering output before any mastering plug-ins. Usually placing a specific gain plugin in front and taking it down makes things better than overloading the mastering plug-ins with a hot signal.

I did my own A/B tests with 24-bit WAV and Ableton a couple of years' ago and if no time-stretching, the quality is on par with any other DAWs on the Mac platform. It's understandable, most smart audio engineers know how to write 64-bit mixing engines. And 64-bit gives so much headroom that it's hard to overload the sum mix.

I thinks this all goes to the 'subjective' tagline where everyone has their own ideas what sounds better or worse.
 
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moses said:
bigrome, the "math" you are talking about is really just an addition. That "+" sign you probably saw at school. ;)

All DAWs on the planet mix all tracks in the following way:

track1 + track2 + trackn

no matter what you do,

2 + 2 + 1

will always be 5.

There isn't much room for speculations. Arguing against that just makes you look stupid, really. The only thing you can do is to take a closer look at the digital arithmetic hidden behind that addition, i.e. how the bits are handled and how many you actually have to represent a number. Again, all DAWs use at least 32bit floating point arithmetic for their calculations (which means the maximum precision is over 40dB below the hearing threshold), so there won't be any audible differences.

You're really arguing against logic here. Please post an example.. ..mix a few files in ableton, mix the same files in reaper.



No. Listening tests are always subjective. They depend on tons of things like daylight, fatigue, urge to urinate, motivation, being hungry, whatever. Even your analogue gear has a slight memory effect and will act differently with each play. These factors can change within seconds. You'll find countless articles mentioning all kinds of issues about listening tests.

Blind Listening Tests are Flawed: An Editorial | AVguide
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I just quoted the whole thing for truth. Well put.
 
I'm going for that urge to urinate, hungry, fatigued sound... if it sounds "better". I would like to like what I hear, the math behind it doesn't matter.


Even if I'm arguing against logic... I can't argue with my ears... Reaper sounds better... and for some reason, I'm not the only person making this "argument".

I wonder why that is? People have multiple DAW's but hear a difference... and the difference normally points to one DAW over and over.

.... maybe we're all crazy.

LIVE sounds DEAD... still a nice DAW but with the crashes and "perceived" sound quality flaw... it needs to steps it's game up.

I posted that LIVE 8 crashes a lot and a whole bunch of people jumped in the thread saying "no it doesn't" lol, until the Ableton LIVE team came out and apologized for the poor coding (probably the same poor coding that's F'n up the sound). You don't have be some technical guru to notice some things.
 
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Is there an option (in LIVE) to turn your buffer settings up so the CPU can fully power your VST plugins? Thats probably why it sounds different too.
 
kyng said:
Is there an option (in LIVE) to turn your buffer settings up so the CPU can fully power your VST plugins? Thats probably why it sounds different too.
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Yes, there is an option to adjust the buffer setting in LIVE...

... but you don't have to do it in REAPER.

The math is all the same... I like the output of one more than the other...


These people have flawed ears too... poor us... sniff.

KVR: Ableton Live sound quality

Sound Quality of Ableton Live ? - Gearslutz.com

Ableton Forum • View topic - sound quality: live vs. logic

Ableton Forum • View topic - Live 6 versus SX 3.1 sound quality test

Ableton Live's sound quality

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=9410&sid=24971a4c824641384ec261a77affefbb

Ableton Live 7 and the new 64-bit Summing Engine | Kent Sandvik Audio Labs

Sound quality in ableton is bad | Serato.com



Find another DAW that's getting slammed like that.
 
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Most of those threads are acctually about version 6 and before. There's one about 7 that says he can't really hear the difference, but he never really had a problem with the engine. And I think there's one newer that has a guy claiming that with 20 ppl saying he just doesnt know how to work live.

All in all the examples seem pretty bad :P
Either way, what you use doesn't really concern me, so just use whatever you like. If you feel you can hear the difference then by all means go for it. :)
I didn't use live pre 7, and I dont have any problem with the sound of it, so I'll still be using live for everything. I'm pretty happy with the results I get at least.

One reason that live might be getting so much bad rep is that its pretty accesible. Logic is stricly apple, pt used to require a hardware purchase, cubase requires dongle, while live is both pc and mac. Furthermore many people have heard of it, and they offer a demo. Same thing with fl, and it's not like fl studio's not getting it's share of crap :P
 
After reading this thread again, this was a ridiculous thread to begin with. If you like the sound of one program over another, use it. Don't ***** about how much it sucks on an internet forum. /thread
 
Also, about 90% of the sound quality issues with Live have always come down to that there's some warping going on. Even if you don't alter the tempo of a clip but just have warp on - and in a non-suitable mode for the material at hand - it's gonna f*ck up the transients easily, which obviously causes an "unrefined" sound.
 
I don't think it's necessarily placebo as such; it's just easy to do stuff in Live "accidentally" (ie. not understanding/knowing everything that goes on) that compromises the sound somewhat and leads to these discussions about the "sound engine" and "summing engine" - whether or not they're actually related to it or not. I'm not throwing out the possibility that there is something inherently wrong in Live, I just regard it highly unlikely - and judging from the amount of discussions that end up in "oh I didn't realize that factor x has an impact on the sound" it's user error more often than not.
 
krushing said:
Also, about 90% of the sound quality issues with Live have always come down to that there's some warping going on. Even if you don't alter the tempo of a clip but just have warp on - and in a non-suitable mode for the material at hand - it's gonna f*ck up the transients easily, which obviously causes an "unrefined" sound.
Click to expand...
I have seen this as an answer in numerous threads too, but I've allways been reading that people love the warp engine, and so do I. Is it just a matter of people using the wrong settings, or is it regarded as a bad engine?
 
Forbidden_Silence said:
After reading this thread again, this was a ridiculous thread to begin with. If you like the sound of one program over another, use it. Don't ***** about how much it sucks on an internet forum. /thread
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I made it because I know people like you would read it and get emotional. I didn't make the thread for nothing. Duh. I know we have moderators that make sure the high level rules are followed but when did they add Thread Police? and how you land the job?

... I also made it because maybe someone else felt the same way and felt that they were kicking themselves and doing something "wrong", I didn't want them to feel alone. It was just a big ol "Yeah, I hear what you hear too... they say you have to tweak super hidden settings to get it to sound like every other DAW.... do that if you want to" type of thing.

It doesn't matter if the threads I posted above are from LIVE version 1, people are talking about "math" like they're IT programmers - which all of us aren't... I talk about EARS because we all have 'em.

Check it out -

"That TV CANNOT be clearer than the other one because they are ALL 1080i, you are soooo stupid!"

Me - "Well, look at the TV's..."

"Nooooo..... they all say 1080i right on the label... you must be tired or have to pee when you look at the one you think is clearer than the other. It's impossible. The math is all the same...."

Me - "Look at the TV's... I'm looking at one and then the other and I have to pee but I'm not leaving and then coming back... test conditions are the same..."

"WTF! is wrong with YOU! They are ALL the same! your eyes mean nothing! 2+2+1 is always going to be 5! They all say 1080i right on 'em"



... geez. Ha Ha.

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

Warping and all that... other DAW's don't have problems where they add in features that degrade the sound quality of the music. That's kind of backwards.

So even if it's user error... why not make it known to the user that wants out of the box clarity?

It sounds like this -

"My car won't get good gas mileage... it's brand new and it says 35 miles per gallon... is there something wrong?"

"There's nothing wrong with your car, there's something wrong with you! If you turn on the radio, you go down to 30 miles per gallon, if you use the windshield wipers it's 25, turn on the heat it's 20, adjust your seat too far back it's 15, have another person ride with you it's 10, put luggage in the trunk it's 5... if you didn't know what you were doing in the first place, you should've just bought another car instead of complaining about ours!"

"I just wanted a car that get 35 miles per gallon..."

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

Then the guy is going to say "That was in version 6 and not version 7"

What happened to the math that supposed to be the same in every DAW in the world... is there some possibility that the "MATH" could change from version 6 to 7?"

... isn't it impossible to change an audio engine because 2 + 2+ 1 always = 5

... or did I miss something?

ALL audio engines are exactly the same is what I'm reading... but it's not what I (and it seems a lot of other people) are HEARING (with their ears).


... I prefer the sound of REAPER (even if there is no difference except the meters looking better... maybe that's it... I just THINK I'm hearing a difference because I can see the meters in REAPER better... that's probably it.... but wait, if two programs were written in the same language the meters are exactly the same at the coding level and my eyes are playing tricks on me right?)
 
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biggrome said:
I made it because I know people like you would read it and get emotional. I didn't make the thread for nothing. Duh. I know we have moderators that make sure the high level rules are followed but when did they add Thread Police? and how you land the job?

... I also made it because maybe someone else felt the same way and felt that they were kicking themselves and doing something "wrong", I didn't want them to feel alone. It was just a big ol "Yeah, I hear what you hear too... they say you have to tweak super hidden settings to get it to sound like every other DAW.... do that if you want to" type of thing.

It doesn't matter if the threads I posted above are from LIVE version 1, people are talking about "math" like they're IT programmers - which all of us aren't... I talk about EARS because we all have 'em.

Check it out -

"That TV CANNOT be clearer than the other one because they are ALL 1080i, you are soooo stupid!"

Me - "Well, look at the TV's..."

"Nooooo..... they all say 1080i right on the label... you must be tired or have to pee when you look at the one you think is clearer than the other. It's impossible. The math is all the same...."

Me - "Look at the TV's... I'm looking at one and then the other and I have to pee but I'm not leaving and then coming back... test conditions are the same..."

"WTF! is wrong with YOU! They are ALL the same! your eyes mean nothing! 2+2+1 is always going to be 5! They all say 1080i right on 'em"



... geez. Ha Ha.

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

Warping and all that... other DAW's don't have problems where they add in features that degrade the sound quality of the music. That's kind of backwards.

So even if it's user error... why not make it known to the user that wants out of the box clarity?

It sounds like this -

"My car won't get good gas mileage... it's brand new and it says 35 miles per gallon... is there something wrong?"

"There's nothing wrong with your car, there's something wrong with you! If you turn on the radio, you go down to 30 miles per gallon, if you use the windshield wipers it's 25, turn on the heat it's 20, adjust your seat too far back it's 15, have another person ride with you it's 10, put luggage in the trunk it's 5... if you didn't know what you were doing in the first place, you should've just bought another car instead of complaining about ours!"

"I just wanted a car that get 35 miles per gallon..."

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

Then the guy is going to say "That was in version 6 and not version 7"

What happened to the math that supposed to be the same in every DAW in the world... is there some possibility that the "MATH" could change from version 6 to 7?"

... isn't it impossible to change an audio engine because 2 + 2+ 1 always = 5

... or did I miss something?

ALL audio engines are exactly the same is what I'm reading... but it's not what I (and it seems a lot of other people) are HEARING (with their ears).


... I prefer the sound of REAPER (even if there is no difference except the meters looking better... maybe that's it... I just THINK I'm hearing a difference because I can see the meters in REAPER better... that's probably it.... but wait, if two programs were written in the same language the meters are exactly the same at the coding level and my eyes are playing tricks on me right?)
Click to expand...

Lol. I allways like what you're writing, but most of this is pretty far out.
I get you on the ears point and all, like most people on here say, use whatever you like.
Comparing software to hardware isnt gonna work, you seem like a reasonable guy so I'm gonna assume you get that.

Even though all modern daws use 64bit summing or whatever, that doesnt mean that there hasnt been improvements in the past. Not really much of a point here.

I dont know about the warping engine though. I haven't noticed any considerable loss in fidelity unless I really warp it. I do most of my warping in complex pro, and then experiment with the settings. Might be my ears are not tuned enough, but I like whats coming out of my speakers. At least most of the time, but that's probably due to my skill as of yet.

The metering point was just ramblings man. Coding meters and ui, and coding the rendering process is completely different things. Even with my technical knowledge I can understand that much, and I don't know shit about that stuff.
 
And did you read those threads? The last one even starts with the assumption that there's a DAC in the program. It's the exact same stuff as this thread, basically. Half truths and misunderstandings. Maybe Live's default settings should be more care-free; maybe people should actually read their manuals for their expensive software packages and figure out, for example, what the different dithering modes do and when one should use them. Using your ears is obviously the most natural thing to do when it comes to audio, but it's not quite the analytical and objective tool when proving a technical point.
 
krushing said:
And did you read those threads? The last one even starts with the assumption that there's a DAC in the program. It's the exact same stuff as this thread, basically. Half truths and misunderstandings. Maybe Live's default settings should be more care-free; maybe people should actually read their manuals for their expensive software packages and figure out, for example, what the different dithering modes do and when one should use them. Using your ears is obviously the most natural thing to do when it comes to audio, but it's not quite the analytical and objective tool when proving a technical point.
Click to expand...

No one's trying to prove a "technical" point though. Technically they're all the same... but somehow - maybe it's other coding - they don't sound the same to everyone.... or else those threads wouldn't exist. Probably all of the info in those posts is wrong or inaccurate.

Does it matter? The point is that people don't really want to have to become audio engineers just to get decent sound out of their "expensive software packages" when $40 programs are providing exceptional clarity right out of box (or download in this case). Most people want to make music, render it and not have the life squashed out of it. LIVE should get their "default" settings in order inside of having people "assume" that they're going to get quality out of it right off the bat without any tweaking. For the price tag you SHOULDN'T have to adjust any settings at all.

Take my car analogy... if you bought a car - the goal would be to drive it. If you had to go to a garage and tweak the engine to some "guess-work" configuration to get it to perform how all of the other cars are performing right off of the lot - that wouldn't be a good thing. You probably wouldn't notice anything different about the car if you didn't compare it to another car.

So ALL of those threads could be full of complete audio illiterates.... but guess what most of them found out.... there is a DAW that they can all point at that can't even impress the people with no real audio knowledge at all.

They should contact Cockos and Apple and ask them how to fool us.

I wouldn't mind being fooled by Ableton LIVE, if it could fool me so it sounds like Reaper I'd be okay with people telling me I don't know what I'm hearing... but since there's such a noticeable difference - I still think I know what I'm hearing... whether the math is the same or not.

So whether the argument is "stupid" or not.... doesn't matter. People like the sound of Logic and other programs better... (dummies - I can't believe they can actually hear...)

... and don't let me get started on the crashing threads and complaints .... oh my goodness!

It crashed on me 4 times yesterday, I have just accepted that crashes are a part of working with LIVE...

You get the "Live did not close correctly, would you like Live to recover your work?"... and you think "I would like LIVE to not crash in the first place..." but you just click yes, wait and try to recapture the moment.

I still use LIVE though... I'm going to wait it out... until they get it right.

Everybody is going to use what they're going to use. I'm using LIVE for the creating music, Reaper to make the final product sound better... and it does sound better... I just have to play two files to figure that out.
 
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biggrome said:
Take my car analogy... if you bought a car - the goal would be to drive it. If you had to go to a garage and tweak the engine to some "guess-work" configuration to get it to perform how all of the other cars are performing right off of the lot - that wouldn't be a good thing. You probably wouldn't notice anything different about the car if you didn't compare it to another car.
Click to expand...

Then again, if you bought a race car, you probably would want to adjust its settings to your liking before hitting the track - and you don't want someone to just guess what those things under the hood do either :)

Live's always been a tool that conforms to different types of workflows and just sort of offers building blocks for everyone to construct an environment suitable to their style. The flexibility comes at the cost that not everything is gonna be the way you expect it to be by default - and as mentioned many times before, the ease of doing rather complex operations like completely rearranging the timing and structure of a clip in real time also makes it easy to f*ck things up, and well, we all know what blaming the tools usually means. Live's far from perfect but more often than not the ignorant blame it for their own ignorance.
 
krushing said:
Live's far from perfect but more often than not the ignorant blame it for their own ignorance.
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Well, I'm glad there are companies that cater to the ignorant. Companies like ummm.... every other one beside Ableton.

I guess the crashes are our fault too. No wait that's the vst and vsti makers fault and the PC makers fault.... and the soundcard makers fault.... and the fault of whomever coded the drivers. Everybody elses fault beside Ableton.

They do however know how to hire a PR company to write apologies... can't wait until they can hire programmers that can write code... the next link is from them... maybe rushing out releases to put money in your pockets isn't a good thing...

Ableton Forum • View topic - Quality

The best part of that was...

and this is where things have gone wrong while we let our attention divert to ambitious new projects.

How about focusing on finishing projects before they are released to the public?

So many embarrassed Ableton LIVE DJ's out there it's a shame... I saw all of the complaints about how parties were ruined, lol... sad stuff.

Seems like they can't get their "MATH" right...


Live is still my favorite music making program... I just wish it would work and be on same level as other DAW's.

and we had the nerve to crack jokes about Fruity Loops... look at us now... smh.
 
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Some mod please lock this thread allready.
I can see why you wanted to point out some percieved problem. I have no problem with that. But you dont really seem to want a discussion, you just resort to crying and sarcasm whenever someone argues against you.
And now you're just sulking.

There's noone here calling you out, but you seem to be trying very hard to incorporate poorly hidden insults into each and every post. Forumtroll status incoming.
 
datsnork said:
Some mod please lock this thread allready.
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Agreed. I "think" I hear a difference and I have no proof but my own ears.

The tests people mentioned are all the proof other people need... no one took my ear test challenge.

It takes less time to set up and conduct than it does to read my posts in this thread and I cannot figure out why people would be against just listening to two files.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong... I already paid for REAPER and am satisfied with the purchase.

... as stated in the first post.... I didn't want to hear a difference but I did. After I got so much flack from this thread.... I did the same little EAR test again... same results.

Plus I can export to .mp3 or .flac after mixdown with REAPER.

Personal preference.
 
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