Sub Bass & Mixing on Headphones (Q&A)

[lsc9x]

Hello people!

The last few months have been a real adventure into this whole "bedroom studio" thing, so I have some tips for others out there about mixing at home with headphones (mainly), but I also have a question for you guys.

First, everyone says that mixing on headphones is a "bad idea" (and just get some studio monitors), and in some important ways I AGREE (see below), but since that wasn't really a good option for me, I decided to focus in on headphones and the technology around it. I also had to do this on a semi-low budget.

So, I'll share what I've picked up and then I have a question for you guys.

Here's my setup, and why:

1) KRK KNS6400 headphones. They aren't great, but they aren't bad for $99 bucks. They have a flat response, they are fairly clear, and I couldn't tell a lot of difference from other similarly priced headphones. Frankly, the guy at the local music store turned me on to them (reluctantly meeting my budget). If I had to buy these again, I'd go for the Sennheiser 280 Pros. They are a tad bit better than the KRKs, but not by much, imo.

2) Toneboosters Isone VST plugin. (15 Euros or about $25 dollars.) Basically, this is a "speaker emulation" plugin that takes headphones and makes them sound more like studio monitors. One great thing about this plugin (and also a pain), is that you can calibrate the plugin to closely match actual physical monitors (I did this with my M-Audio BX5 D2 monitors) and so you can get a mix very close to your physical monitors without using the monitors! Calibrate during the day, then mix at night, for example. You only have to calibrate this once, so you can borrow someone else's monitors to do that, then give them the monitors back. You put this on the Master track of your mix after all the other effects. It works quite well IF you follow the instructions for setting it up!

3) Focusrite's VRM module. ($99). This module is great! It emulates everything from crappy PC speakers, or TV speakers up through high priced studio monitors. No, it won't actually replace those high end monitors, but it very much allows you to test your mix on a variety of various devices without actually owning a studio or those monitors, and without having to run around playing your mix physically, plus it has 3 room models to boot. It's absolutely worth the money, imo. One note: You can't calibrate this to match your monitors, so get Isone if you need to do calibrate your sound.

So, for about $250 you get a decent set of headphones and some gear to make it easier to reference your mix. If you are stuck on headphones, try what I suggested! =)

However, NONE of this (including the BX5 monitors) does much in the sub-bass department. Even the BX5s barely register in the sub-bass range. So, that's the problem I am running into now: How to hear and mix sub-bass (quietly!).

Technically, you need a proper sub woofer to move a lot of air at very low frequencies to get that "thump" you feel in dance music, and you just can't get that on headphones. It's also fairly expensive ($400~) to get into even a basic decent subwoofer. Also, getting one defeats the whole purpose of using headphones: To be able to mix without disturbing the neighbors!

So, I have given up on the idea of being able to faithfully replicate sub bass on headphones, because it is more tactile than audio, but I can still try and get CLOSE enough to be able to guess what the mix will sound like on actual woofers.

To do this:

1) The headphones have to play frequencies between 20-40hz and
2) The headphones have to also have warm mids and clear highs

My question is: What headphones would you recommend, $200 and under, than can do 20-40hz at an audible level and don't suck?

The best candidate I have found thus far are these:

Sony MDR-XB700

Anyone have any suggestions? Here are some headphones mentioned by others, but I don't know if any of them can audibly represent sub-bass:

Sennheiser HD25-1 II
Audio-Technica ATH-M50
Audio Technica ATH-WS55
Beyerdynamic DT150
Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro
V-MODA M-80
Sony MDR7506

Thanks for the feedback, and I hope my tips help someone! =)

(PS: I posted a similar question earlier, but I think I hit the wrong button. If so, sorry for the duplicate!)

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 PM ----------

Just wanted to add a couple of clarifications to the previous post:

1) Don't use Tonebooster's Isone and Focusrite's VRM at the same time. You'll want to use one or the other. (Using the bypass switch in your DAW to switch to the VRM is an easy way to do this).

2) What I am really looking for in terms of sub bass is just being able to hear the tone, and know that's it's there. I'll for sure have to actually reference this on actual monitors or speakers after the initial mix. Right now, I can't hear ANY sub bass, so I don't even know if the notes are right or not. I plan on using a spectrum analyzer with the headphones.

Thanks!

 

[illsoundzmuzik]

Sub Bass & Mixing on Headphones

My suggestion would be the Audio Technica Ath- M50's. If i remember correctly they cost me $150 and they are absolutely incredible. You shouldn't want headphones that favor any frequency range. You should be looking for flat sounding headphones that represent your mix accurately. The Ath 50's are great, every thing is well represented the bass is crisp and clear and not over exaggerated,they handle sub bass with ease. I use rokit 8's for mixing but even those can't produce the sub frequencies like the Ath 50's can. I highly recommend these.

 

[lsc9x]

Wow! I checked out those ATH-M50s, only $120 on Amazon! Perfect. I'll wait at bit to see if there are any other responses to this thread, but you said enough to convince me I'd be very happy with the M-50s. Many thanks, that saves me a lot of time and money!

Now, if I buy these, I'm going to hold you to it! j/k

---------- Post added at 01:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 AM ----------

My suggestion would be the Audio Technica Ath- M50's. If i remember correctly they cost me $150 and they are absolutely incredible. You shouldn't want headphones that favor any frequency range. You should be looking for flat sounding headphones that represent your mix accurately. The Ath 50's are great, every thing is well represented the bass is crisp and clear and not over exaggerated,they handle sub bass with ease. I use rokit 8's for mixing but even those can't produce the sub frequencies like the Ath 50's can. I highly recommend these.

UPDATE: I checked out a carload of reviews on Amazon.com for the ATH-M50s, and the REVIEWS blew me away! I don't think I've read as many emphatic endorsements for a product there before. Hands down I am getting these!

Good call, and thanks a million!

 

[illsoundzmuzik]

Cool man, I stand by these headphones 100% i highly doubt you'll have any issues with them.

 

[lsc9x]

No worries! Already ordered it. =) If the Audio Techinica ATH-M50S phones are defective and I need to get another pair, I can deal with that, but apparently quality control is amazing on these. i didn't read a single bad review on them, at least in terms of sound quality. I think the review that started with "Your search is now over." finally convinced me. Also, one guy claimed to be an actual studio professional, and he said that these headphones are quickly replacing a previous Sony MDR-7506 model as the de-factor standard in professional recording studios, crushing the competition in the process, and another review said that these are (almost) as good as the Ultrasone Edition 8 which costs about $1000. 90% as good as a pair of $1000 headphones? Sold, sold and sold. The rave reviews just go on seemingly forever (just google them), so I am 100% confident in my purchase, which is exactly what I was looking for. For anyone else that is reading this thread, there are actually 2 versions of these headphones: The Audio Techinca ATH-M50 and Audio Techinca ATH-M50S. The only significant difference between the two models is that the "S" version has a traight, fairly long cable, whereas the non-S version has a shorter, coiled cable. Neither is better than the other, the "better" cable type fundamentally comes down to personal preference. The shorter, coiled cable is 4' to 6' when stretched, perfect for mobile situations, or where you aren't going to be far from the phones jack, but the straight cable would be better for getting up and walking around a bit, or if your jack is more than 6' away. Also, apparently Audio Technica actually designs their headphones to get better over time and usage. Many reviewers said that after 50+ hours of use, or "burning in" the phones, the become significantly better than they are right out of the box, but that they are solid on day one. Wow! Someone actually designs a product that gets BETTER with use? If only there were more companies like that... but I digress... BACK TO TOPIC: So, this thread is about mixing on headphones and managing SUB BASS. I'm going to test these suckers out within the next few weeks, and I'll be back with a review on the Audio Technica ATH-M50S headphones as (potentially) the "last piece" of the "headphones mixing on a budget" puzzle. I can't wait! (Except I'll have to wait, because I am a cheapo on shipping charges). =)

 

[FlameOnTheBeat]

yeah. I got the silver m50's for $150 back in august and love them.

 

[sleeper187]

Go with the ATH-M50s, I've been using them since December and it was worth every penny. However if you dont have some kind of headphone amplifier, it might not have enough juice. That might be the proplem with your KRKs. I have my M50s plugged into my scarlett preamp and without it, it doesnt have much power. If you want to make sure your sub is on key, just play it at a higher octave then lower it back when you got the right keys.

 

[Chubby c]

How are sennheiser 280 pros compared to those?

 

[lsc9x]

However if you dont have some kind of headphone amplifier, it might not have enough juice. That might be the proplem with your KRKs.

I've got a presonus USB audio interface and a behringer DJ mixer, and the phones sound pretty much the same on each, so I think I have preamp covered. They do get loud, they just don't "thump". I think the M50s will work nicely!

How are sennheiser 280 pros compared to those?

You can read all the reviews on amazon. I found multiple reviews there saying that the M50s are better than the 280s. Worth looking into....

---------- Post added 04-05-2013 at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was 04-03-2013 at 12:16 AM ----------

Cool man, I stand by these headphones 100% i highly doubt you'll have any issues with them.

I just got my ATH-M50s and YEP! I put in some Deadmau5 just to compare a commercial song, apples for apples, with my KRK KNS6400s, and the difference is profound. The ATHs have a much crisper high end, the mids aren't as in your face, and the bass response is markedly better. Overall, it sounds a lot more "natural" with equal emphasis on low, mid and high ranges.

Then, I pulled up a song I am working with and threw a sub in. I am definitely picking up the sub bass now (I couldn't even hear it before!), and messing around with the mix for a few minutes, managed to get it nicely mixed with the other instruments.

I'm not going to rush to judgement on these phones because people say it needs a good 50-60 hours of play to "burn in" to sound the best, but right off the bat I'm shelving the KRKs.

The ATH-M50Ss are fantastic headphones! Good call, man. I can't thank you enough. (and for $96? Can't beat that...)

I'll be back in a few days with more mixing info!

 

[illsoundzmuzik]

No problem man, they are great headphones. You got a great deal on them as well. Now time to make great music.

 

[lsc9x]

Yes! I'll be back with that too. =)

 

[NickGeorge]

You should be careful using speaker modelling software. Although they can give you approximations on how your music will sound through different speakers, you should still listen to your mix on different system as its a true real life setting.

I have the Focusrite Saffire 24 DSP and the vrm hardly gets used as I prefer to do it in real life. (car, shitty headphones, CD player in the kitchen etc)

Id also recommend saving up for the HD650 ... best headphones ever made.

 

[lsc9x]

You should be careful using speaker modelling software. Although they can give you approximations on how your music will sound through different speakers, you should still listen to your mix on different system as its a true real life setting.
I have the Focusrite Saffire 24 DSP and the vrm hardly gets used as I prefer to do it in real life. (car, shitty headphones, CD player in the kitchen etc)

Id also recommend saving up for the HD650 ... best headphones ever made.

True! On all counts. (Nice song, by the way!)

I think the operative words are "being careful" and "referencing".

Here are some web articles that go into a LOT more detail about mixing with headphones, including managing bass and referencing outside platforms:

Roundup : Can You Really Mix On Headphones?
Mixing On Headphones
Mixing with Headphones: Avoiding Disaster | Headphones | Music Production Tips - The Stereo Bus Blog
Mixing With Headphones
How to Manage & Process Sub-Bass Frequencies

The point with this whole exercise is really to try and get as close to a final mix as possible without referencing, mainly for "bedroom" producers who aren't allowed to be loud and musical at home, but referencing is mandatory at the end of the mixing process....
...unless, of course you are Skrillex, who used Beats headphones, a blown speaker, and a laptop to make Scary Monsters & Nice Sprites... which eventually led him to 5 Grammys. Apparently he still mixes on headphones because he's constantly touring and living out of hotel rooms. LOL!

 

[RedBeerd]

Wow. A page and a half thread about how to avoid the best option for the better quality.

 

[anaujiram]

Mdr-xb300 by sony are insane and very cheap (50$) and the frequencie response is very good (5hz to 22khz ) .

 

[RedBeerd]

Mdr-xb300 by sony are insane and very cheap (50$) and the frequencie response is very good (5hz to 22khz ) .

The notion of the human ear being able to translate a 5Hz signal is ridiculous. Physics prevents this. 5Hz can only be felt.

Please, people, do the research. If you're really serious about production, really, REALLY serious, then a general Knowledge of the fundamental principles of the physics of sound is imperative. The idea that one is truly interested in capturing, producing, manipulating, and becoming a master of sound without knowing how it works is asinine. A man without Thought will never have an idea.

I've been on this site for years, and one thing I've noticed is that noobs will go to great lengths to find those who sympathize/empathize with their environmental shortcomings, insufficient equipment, or plain ignorance in order to justify their continuation of bad and counterproductive practices. Whatever the reason or excuse, production quality will not improve just because several others agree with and support your position. How do I Know? I was one of them.

So all of you can get together and build your own website, entirely dedicated to the production of music through headphones, and get a million members who post 10,000 threads a day. You know what'll happen? There'll be 1 million people putting out music that sounds like it was mixed and "mastered" in headphones. Then you can all start a website dedicated to "Why can't I get my snare to sound like the one that Boi-1da used? I got it from the kit, but it just doesn't sound like his..."



C'mon y'all! If you're serious, put in the work. Half the people trying to do this talk about the grind, but they don't read.

The man without legs can't jump.

Peace.

 

[anaujiram]

The notion of the human ear being able to translate a 5Hz signal is ridiculous. Physics prevents this. 5Hz can only be felt.

Please, people, do the research. If you're really serious about production, really, REALLY serious, then a general Knowledge of the fundamental principles of the physics of sound is imperative. The idea that one is truly interested in capturing, producing, manipulating, and becoming a master of sound without knowing how it works is asinine. A man without Thought will never have an idea.

I've been on this site for years, and one thing I've noticed is that noobs will go to great lengths to find those who sympathize/empathize with their environmental shortcomings, insufficient equipment, or plain ignorance in order to justify their continuation of bad and counterproductive practices. Whatever the reason or excuse, production quality will not improve just because several others agree with and support your position. How do I Know? I was one of them.

So all of you can get together and build your own website, entirely dedicated to the production of music through headphones, and get a million members who post 10,000 threads a day. You know what'll happen? There'll be 1 million people putting out music that sounds like it was mixed and "mastered" in headphones. Then you can all start a website dedicated to "Why can't I get my snare to sound like the one that Boi-1da used? I got it from the kit, but it just doesn't sound like his..."

View attachment 38605

C'mon y'all! If you're serious, put in the work. Half the people trying to do this talk about the grind, but they don't read.

The man without legs can't jump.

Peace.

Sound like your mad bro , i only make music for 8 month first ... second i was just proposing good cheap headphone for 50 box .... Third i haver multiple monitors im using pioneer cs-r570 some bose systeme and some 5.1 surround system , its normal it dosnt sound good on your 300$ studio monitors with flat response , im starting out and i already have spent alot in music production i can tell you im very serious in music production and i do saving right now for GOOD studio monitors but for right now poeple enjoy it my stuff on their speaker (if they have alot of bass) and im doing it first for the love of music . dont be the guy that need equipment for making music some poeple have shit to pay and cant afford good equipment but they make better music that me and you so it dosnt mean anything .

 

[RedBeerd]

Not mad at all. Just pointing out the fact that you don't know what you're talkin' about, and you're passing along your misinformation like it can be depended on. That messes up alot of newbs in here. They go out and waste money and wonder why their production still sounds the same or worse.

Peace.

 

[fataltone]

best option get some subs in your car and call it a day
if you can't play subs in your dorm,bedroom,apt.

I'm glad I live in a house
it's a blessing


-Coach Antonio

 

[lsc9x]

I've been on this site for years, and one thing I've noticed is that noobs will go to great lengths to find those who sympathize/empathize with their environmental shortcomings, insufficient equipment, or plain ignorance in order to justify their continuation of bad and counterproductive practices. Whatever the reason or excuse, production quality will not improve just because several others agree with and support your position. How do I Know? I was one of them.

RedBeard,

I hear you, I agree with you, and I know what you are talking about because I have done a TON of reading and have been playing around with this for months. I'm learning something new every day, and that's after playing around with DAWs for 15+ years. I was never really serious about it until a few months ago, but now I am, so I have been learning, making mistakes, then trying to improve using the tools at my disposal.

Your information IS correct, and should be evaluated and acted on by people on this site, myself included! Hey, I'm the guy who wasted $250 on entry level monitors, then discovered that they were wholly incapable of reproducing sub because their dynamic range didn't go low enough, which is exactly why I started this thread: To help people not make the same mistake as I did!

Having said that, commercial studio mixing is not what this thread was about. This thread is about mixing with headphones, in a micro-studio environment, WITH the knowledge that eventually the song will need to be played on various practical devices like car stereos, home stereos, or even iPhones or whatever else people are listening to. That is called "referencing". Get a mix sounding a certain way, then burn it to a CD or MP3, then stick it on a car stereo or iPhone and then see how it actually sounds. I have had to do exactly this because there is a huge difference between phones and speakers. By "referencing", you will learn your own gear, and eventually know what you have to do on the computer to make it sound good on a _____________. The specific problem, and the title of this thread, was "mixing sub bass" using phones. Yes, 5 hz can only be felt because the lower range of human hearing drops off at 12-15hz, and that's if your ears have great dynamic range! 5hz will be more in the realm of an LFO than a regular oscillator. However, if you get a set of phones with a dynamic range that extends down to about 15hz, at least you can start to hear what your bass may sound like, so at least you can work on something. I find myself flipping back and forth to actual commercial songs to see how my work stacks up.

This is NO physical way to "get it right" using ONLY headphones. I think I probably said something to this effect when I started this thread, if not, I'm re-stating it now.

However, people are still going to be limited by their surroundings, so the question was: "How can I get something as close to "finished" as possible without monitors, and sounding decent if I can't run a 12" sub in my apartment?" (Or similar).

So, please people, read this whole thread from start to finish, do your homework either with books, the Internet, and your gear, then make up your own mind on how you want to proceed. Yes, do a ton of reading! Learn about sound and the physics behind it because you just need to know that stuff. It isn't just important, it's mandatory. Like RedBeard said, you pretty much can't fly if your airplane has no wings.

-----

Now, getting back to topic: I've had a chance to "burn in" the AudioTechnica ATH-M50S headphones over the last week, and I think they are the final piece I needed to be able to work on music using my micro-studio. Regular studio music sounds fantastic, and my mixes are already sounding more like I want them to. There is also a lot of detail with these phones. Overall, the $99 was well spent. Now, they won't hit those 5hz tones that can only be felt, but they are able to get down into the bass range enough to be able to at least hear some bass. The vibrations you feel with your ears is your clue to sub bass. No, it isn't what will be coming out of the PA system, and it won't replace a woofer for testing, but you will at least have something to reference. That was my goal, and it works. I took some samples of new stuff I'm working on last night and played them on my parent's stereo, and it sounded pretty good! Not perfect, but good.

So, to recap:

1) You will never know what your actual mix will sound like on speakers until you play your song on speakers.
2) Get a good set of headphones if you plan on mixing on them. Make sure they have a wide a dynamic range as possible, especially on the low end. The closer you can get to 12-15hz, the better. Read reviews, scour the internet for reviews, figure out what your budget is and then get the most bang for your buck.
3) Do your mix on the phones, getting it to sound good, but then be ready to ditch your mix when you start using referencing plugins like Toneboosters Isone, or a physical device like the Focusrite VRM. Don't stay on any one virtual setting too long! Mix it up (sorry for the bad pun) and make sure your song sounds decent using a variety of virtual settings. This will indicate that you are moving in the right direction. If your mix sounds great on one preset, but like crap on most of the others, you should re-mix to the crappiest sounding virtual setting, then mix it up again.
4) Once you are satisfied that you have something that sounds good on most of your virtual settings, then you are getting closer. Now take your music and play it on whatever physical devices you want. Car stereo, home stereo, mobile devices are all fair game. If you have done your mix well with your gear, you should have a difficult time figuring out how to make your stuff sound better on actual physical devices. If you have NOT done your mix well, you will almost immediately hear what's wrong. (This is usually where I am to start with!) Have a pen and paper ready to jot down notes! Take those notes, go back to your DAW, and re-mix it, re-test it etc. using your notes. Your next mix should sound considerably better!
5) Wash, rinse & repeat until you are satisfied you can't make it any better using the gear you have.
6) Send it off for mastering! Have someone else do that because you have now spent way too much time with this song, and you aren't going to make it any better by keep mucking around with it!

I think that's about all I can add to this thread.

So, that's about it! I hope this helps some people. =)

Back to work...

---------- Post added 06-22-2013 at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was 04-20-2013 at 12:09 PM ----------

I'm Back!

So, I have taken some time now to work with bass and sub bass with the ATH-M50S headphones, and the verdict is YES, you can mix sub bass on these phone. In fact, when you do it "right" (and I am using that term VERY loosely), you will actually feel the vibration of the sub bass on your ears.

The real test though, is taking a mix to a reference point and verifying the bass.

For my mixing tests I used various Deadmau5 songs as a reference point being played back on a 2007 Camry stock stereo system with a flat treble and bass at volume "35" which is a little more than 1/2 max volume. I gauged the "correct" amount of bass by the intensity of the vibrations in the car, especially the vibrations of the rear view mirror.

The instrument I used for bass is Rob Papen's Subboombass (quite a nice module overall!). At first, I wasn't sure about the mix, and when I took it out to the car, it was pretty flat, as it was on the headphones. No shaking. So, I went back to the drawing board. After bunch of mucking around, I came up with a formula to make a decent sounding/feeling bassline. Here's what I did:

- Take a bass and write a bassline.
- Copy that bassline to the same channel, but one octave lower. You may need to muck with the phase of the bass, but I didn't have to for my test.
- Make sure that the oscillator and amp outputs are set at maximum level on the instrument.
- If you want to make the bass tighter, use an amp envelope and/or filter envelope to quickly cut off the sound at the release stage. It should go from full level to to nothing as fast as possible. (Boom Boom Boom as opposed to Wum Wum Wum... you know what I mean...)
- Throw a compressor and an EQ on the channel, and compress the shit out of the bass. The bass should come right up to the peak meter without going over, and make sure you aren't distorting on the master bus. Some people might use a limiter, but I didn't because of the fear of distortion of the high end and transients.
- Put the EQ either before or after the compressor (to taste). Cut the mid-high range, but leave any wanted transients (or even jack them up). Make sure there is a wide bass range with heavy low end, but without muddying the mid-range. For my tests, I used the compressor before the EQ so I would have the strongest output signal that could then be shaped by the EQ.
- Take the first bass channel and copy it to a second channel.
- On the second channel, replace the original bass instrument with a straight sub bass. Move an octave lower if need be, depending on how high the pitch is on your original bass channel.
- Adjust the EQ and compressor on the second channel until it sounds "right"
- Use a 3rd compressor and/or mastering plugin on the master bus to further fatten the sound.
- NOTE: If this isn't enough, you can muck around with saturators or other beefing effects for the original bass channel, but don't throw it on the sub. That signal (should, imo) be clean and dry.
- Finally, if you STILL aren't getting enough bass, there is a free VST plugin by QuikQuak called "UpStereo" that can further amp the signal(s). Even though it is called "stereo" it does have a mono/stereo slider and gain control slider. Put this on either of the 2 bass channels or both, before the compressor to add a little more bump.

That pretty much did the trick for me. Rear view mirror shaking in the car!

At this point, I would say yes, the ATH-M50S headphones did replicate the vibrations of the sub bass in the car. Not as big of shaking as the car stereo, of course, but enough air moving that you can gauge sub-bass on the headphones by the intensity of the vibrations on your ears. One safety note: Don't blast the audio this way on your ears for very long. It could potentially damage your hearing! Just get the right levels and then turn down the mix.

Once you have set up a reference (like the car stereo) and have verified it, then you can just use the headphones for any future bass monitoring because you know how it will sound.

So anyway, that's my two cents. Happy mixing! =)